An ethics problem?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

My original comment was completely in jest, but obviously you are short a sense of humor. Big surprise, there.

I don't care how you folks choose your playoff umpires.
It's obvious the rats run the show where you live and you are (talent and experience aside) the beneficiary of such a system. I could come down there and be the best technical umpire around, but without such familiarity I'd be sitting home come playoff time.

Believe it or not, regional umpires are hired by the teams where we live and, GASP, we decide as a crew who's working what position. If a coach ever tried to tell me who was going to work the plate, I'd probably start laughing and ask him if he was already trying to work ME.

I don't work freshman and JV games, sorry. Can't help you.

Don't come to the Rio Grande Valley then. Those are the only games we assign. All other games are filled by the draft. Throughout the state, both coaches must agree in advance on the umpires. In every sport, not just baseball.

But considering your attitude about coaches, we wouldn't let you call an eighth-grade game. Too much potential for permanent harm to our kiddos.

Your (and your compadres') comments about coaches are ridiculous and self-serving nonsense. If just one coach in our area heard such comments, you would never work again. Not here. Not at any level.

I wonder if that would be true in Wisconsin.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by GarthB

Jesus, Carl, get real. I am not an English teacher. I am not a teacher of English. You are not that stupid so you must be intentionally dishonest.

I did not use my endorsement to lord it over anyone. In that post I was making the point that people should prepare for their jobs, what ever that job is. Specifically I was addressing the issue of some coaches being in charge of a team of young people with out having any idea of the rules of the game.

Look, if you really have the need for everyone to think you're right all time, I'll just give you this blanket admission for future reference:

I Garth Benham do hereby swear and affirm that Carl Childress is always correct in any issue, discussion, disagreement, philosophy whether he has freaking clue of what he is talking about or not and whether or not he is being honest or not. Be it known by all persons that they should accept his word on everything and it matters not what anyone else thinks or believes. Carl is God.

What a crock!

If YOU take after someone, that's ok. How if I make a compliation of all your nasty posts?

When I refuse to allow your crud to go unnoticed, you respond like a teenage girl on her first date.

Amazing!

Typical!

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Ok, "teacher of English," then.

There's no difference. You were "lording" it over the poor old coach.

Typical!

Jesus, Carl, get real. I sure called that one didn't I. I predicted you needed to be right so bad you would pronounce an English teacher and a substitute teacher as one and the same.

I am not an English teacher. I am not a teacher of English. I do not hold a degree in English. And folks like you make me very happy about that. You are not that stupid so you must be intentionally dishonest.

I did not use my endorsement to lord it over anyone. In that post I was making the point that people should prepare for their jobs, what ever that job is. Specifically I was addressing the issue of some coaches being in charge of a team of young people with out having any idea of the rules of the game.

Look, if you really have the need for everyone to think you're right all time, I'll just give you this blanket admission for future reference:

I, Garth Benham, do hereby swear and affirm that Carl Childress is always correct in any issue, discussion, disagreement, philosophy whether he has freaking clue of what he is talking about or not and whether or not he is being honest or not. Be it known by all persons that they should accept his word on everything and it matters not what anyone else thinks or believes. Carl is God.

[akalsey]

Originally posted by GarthB
Carl is God.

Carl managed to respond to your post before you even wrote it. He must be God.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

What a crock!

If YOU take after someone, that's ok. How if I make a compliation of all your nasty posts?

When I refuse to allow your crud to go unnoticed, you respond like a teenage girl on her first date.

Amazing!

Typical!

The difference, Carl, is that I did not twist something you wrote and claim you said something which you did not.


I, Garth Benham, do hereby swear and affirm that Carl Childress is always correct in any issue, discussion, disagreement, philosophy whether he has freaking clue of what he is talking about or not and whether or not he is being honest or not. Be it known by all persons that they should accept his word on everything and it matters not what anyone else thinks or believes. Carl is God.

[cowbyfan1]

Hey Carl here is one thing that was not mentioned. You said Hecotr was a playoff umpire previously. I am taking it he called the playoffs in the last 2 years. Did he manage to make one of the clinics then to earn said playoff spot(s)? Did he use this same method to get out of it? Or did he have another family member that died some years before? If the answers are yes, no and no then you are 100% right in your arguements, to which I say you are anyways. Would I have resigned? No but you are more old schoool then I.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Hey Carl here is one thing that was not mentioned. You said Hecotr was a playoff umpire previously. I am taking it he called the playoffs in the last 2 years. Did he manage to make one of the clinics then to earn said playoff spot(s)? Did he use this same method to get out of it? Or did he have another family member that died some years before? If the answers are yes, no and no then you are 100% right in your arguements, to which I say you are anyways. Would I have resigned? No but you are more old schoool then I.

A good question. In the last two years (when I was in charge) our "clinic" was indoors, during a regular meeting. Those are on Wednesday nights.

The umpires received my call for an actual "clinic" with resigned good humor: "Carl's at it again." Still, we had 117 paid members this year; only 33 (now 34) bothered to certify for the play-offs.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Don't come to the Rio Grande Valley then. Those are the only games we assign. All other games are filled by the draft. Throughout the state, both coaches must agree in advance on the umpires. In every sport, not just baseball.

But considering your attitude about coaches, we wouldn't let you call an eighth-grade game. Too much potential for permanent harm to our kiddos.

Your (and your compadres') comments about coaches are ridiculous and self-serving nonsense. If just one coach in our area heard such comments, you would never work again. Not here. Not at any level.

I wonder if that would be true in Wisconsin.

I wonder if I care. I wonder why I respond to you, as well.

But, what the heck.

You have no clue what I'm like on the field. Sure, the stories about rats make for the most entertaining stories just like your stories about the Old Smitty. But the Old Smitty is an entertaining device you use to make a point whereas me calling a coach a rat is "my attitude about coaches."

Maybe we should look at the Old Smitty as you disrespecting people who choose to umpire youth sports. Maybe you are undermining the officials and contributing to the declining sportsmanship. Even I wouldn't claim something so ridiculous.

Why don't you go find yourself a clue? Why don't you recognize that it may just be the same damned thing?

I've worked 13 games so far this season (we start late up in the north). Each coach has been greeted by name (I find their names on the Internet before going to the game) and shown the utmost in respect by me and by my partners. Only one rat in the bunch and he was treated extremely well until he got himself ejected. I don't put the coaches on any pedestal, though. They're just coaches just like in their eyes we're all just umpires. Apparently you see coaches as "higher on the food chain" to us mere umpires. Sorry, the day I'm in a system where I have to show the proper deference is the day I pack it in for good.

My partners (yes, we pick who we work with, and I work with good umpires) and I don't take innings or games off and we work hard every game. If a coach doesn't want to hire us for whatever reason here, that's OK. I have more games than I know what to do with and there are one or two schools who won't have me back (in basketball, actually) and there are 1-2 schools where I will not work by choice. The system is what it is.

Enjoy your system in the Rio Grande Valley. As someone who's wife has lived in McAllen, I guarantee it will be a cold day in, well, the Rio Grande Valley before I ever live there. But I've been successful in six states working in different systems -- why couldn't I succeed anywhere?

And remember -- all this started because you couldn't understand a little one-line joke I made in a previous post.

Edited to add: A friend has pointed out that you probably COULD understand the joke, but you just chose not to. I would have to agree. Too bad.


[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 17th, 2005 at 01:23 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Sure, the stories about rats make for the most entertaining stories just like your stories about the Old Smitty. But the Old Smitty is an entertaining device you use to make a point whereas me calling a coach a rat is "my attitude about coaches."

And remember -- all this started because you couldn't understand a little one-line joke I made in a previous post.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 17th, 2005 at 01:23 PM]

I am glad to see that someone is admitting the "rat" stories are for entertainment and do not represent the umpire's attitude toward a coach. It is the first I've read of that, though. Your compadres always seem so serious. One of your friends called coaches "sleazy." I prefer the term "competitive." I like coaches. If it weren't for them — even the bad ones — a lot of kids would sit around doing nothing constructive.

Finally, you of all people know that irony and homor are the hardest discourses to recognize on the internet. I apologize for not picking up on your one-liner.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I am glad to see that someone is admitting the "rat" stories are for entertainment and do not represent the umpire's attitude toward a coach. It is the first I've read of that, though. Your compadres always seem so serious. One of your friends called coaches "sleazy." I prefer the term "competitive." I like coaches. If it weren't for them — even the bad ones — a lot of kids would sit around doing nothing constructive.

That may have been me, I don't remember, but there ARE sleazy coaches and there are competitive coaches. All coaches, however, if they are doing their job, are lobbyists and are working everything, including the umpire, in an attempt to get an advantage for their team, deserved or otherwise. That makes them and what they say during a game, untrustworthy, or Rat-like.

[GarthB]

I like coaches. If it weren't for them — even the bad ones — a lot of kids would sit around doing nothing constructive.


Or, having the times of their lives playing on the corner sandlot across from the P&C with no b!tchy parents living through their kids and no coaches yelling at them "get your head out, what are you, retarded?"

Just them, Jimmy "mouse" Knauss, Gary, Jay, Alan, Denny, Johnnie, Larry, Donnie, Lann, Billy, Greg and Artie... playing ball until the street lights come on and then hightailing it for home on their bikes with the glove dangling from one handle bar, a bat held by index fingers as it lays across both handle bars and a ball in a pocket.

Man, I'm old.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I am glad to see that someone is admitting the "rat" stories are for entertainment and do not represent the umpire's attitude toward a coach. It is the first I've read of that, though. Your compadres always seem so serious. One of your friends called coaches "sleazy." I prefer the term "competitive." I like coaches. If it weren't for them — even the bad ones — a lot of kids would sit around doing nothing constructive.

Finally, you of all people know that irony and homor are the hardest discourses to recognize on the internet. I apologize for not picking up on your one-liner.

Coaching is a job. Umpiring is a job. Conflict is a necessary intersection of the two. What annoys me is when they act like the rodents we talk about on the Internet.

I had a college coach come out twice on me yesterday -- actually each one came out once.

First time was on a balk. Did I eject the coach for arguing a balk or warn him to get off the field? No. He asked and I told him why the balk was called (the pitcher came set and after doing so moved his glove forward -- a start-and-stop hard to see from the first base dugout, but painfully obvious to F6 who told me on the pitching change that this pitcher does that all the time) and he made a change. As always, I headed to the outfield for the change and that was that.

Second time was when a batter may have been hit in the box with a batted ball but (1) we didn't see it and (2) the batter didn't react as if he'd been hit. We only work 2-man in WI for D-III games, so I was pretty well straightlined in C. I can only call what I see. Coach wasn't happy, I met him halfway and told him that had I seen it I would've killed it immediately, which is what my partner told him as well, but he was encouraged to come out and talk with me so he did. He still wasn't happy, but I'm still not convinced we actually missed it.

Oh, but here's a little rat story just to keep on topic:

First game I was working the plate. Every play at first base the first base coach would yell SAFE right at the time the play at first was happening. Yes, this was a college game and I think this was a player or grad assistant coaching first. Partner didn't say anything because there were no truly close plays during the game.

First whacker I get the second game, runner's out by about a quarter-step. I hear the coach yell SAFE and I call the runner out. The runner turns around to argue/question the call and I turn myself away from unneeded confrontation. Once the batter was out of there, I called out to the coach and told him that I didn't need any help. He asked what I meant, and I clarified.

We were close enough to the dugout that one of his teammates/players said, "You better be careful -- if you two get into it, I got 10 bucks on the umpire." Of course I laughed -- once my back was turned.

And one more light bit before I take a nap with my now 3-month old daughter: An inning of two later, we had an attempted steal of second. R1 tried to slide headfirst, but did more of a belly-flop onto second base and broke his nose, shattering his Oakleys.

Players and coaches were trying hard not to laugh as, apparently, this has happened before. Pitching coach says, "He's a real piece of work" while laughing. Almost immediately, Queen's "We Will Rock You" plays on the loudspeaker and when the line "blood on your face" played I wondered if they had it queued up on purpose. When the head coach came out the first thing he told the kid was that he may be able to get Oakley to get him a new pair of glasses. Then he asked about the nose.

[Rich]

Originally posted by GarthB
I like coaches. If it weren't for them — even the bad ones — a lot of kids would sit around doing nothing constructive.


Or, having the times of their lives playing on the corner sandlot across from the P&C with no b!tchy parents living through their kids and no coaches yelling at them "get your head out, what are you, retarded?"

Just them, Jimmy "mouse" Knauss, Gary, Jay, Alan, Denny, Johnnie, Larry, Donnie, Lann, Billy, Greg and Artie... playing ball until the street lights come on and then hightailing it for home on their bikes with the glove dangling from one handle bar, a bat held by index fingers as it lays across both handle bars and a ball in a pocket.

Man, I'm old.

When I was 9 years old, back in 1978, I played in a league in my hometown during the summer. There were 10 teams in this league played on a small diamond that seemed big at the time.

The teams were run by 12 year old captains, chosen by the two adults that ran and umpired the league. By the time I was 13 they stopped umpiring and had, you guessed it, 13 year olds like me umpiring. They'd be there to supervise only. So my first umpiring experience was in 1983 as a 13-year-old calling balls and strikes on my schoolmates. Even then I had a generous strike zone.

The captains made all the decisions for the teams -- who played, pitched, batting orders, pitching changes, etc.

It was the most fun I ever had. I will admit, we didn't learn much those years about the fundamentals of baseball, but who cares?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Just a couple of observations...

You definitely like being right/correct. You pride yourself on it and you do a good job at being correct. However, there will always be dissenting opinions and they may be as worthy of consideration as your own.

I don't know the full situation.

There is surely a reason that your association requires an umpire to attend one of the clinics - probably to ensure that umpires assigned to post season games know the proper mechanics. I would guess that Hector knows the proper mechanics and has previously met the requirement. So I can see how a reasonable board member could vote in favor of the exemption. Personally, I think I would have voted with you against such an exception to the rule. (There was a requirement and Hector did not meet it. And, we have plenty of umpires that did meet the requirement who can work the post season games.) But I can see how one might see Hector's as a reasonable request.

You took a very strong stance that an exemption should not be allowed. I feel like you resigned because the board did not fully agree with you. Thank-goodness the Justices of the Supreme Court don't work this way - we'd be down to Judge Roy Bean after just a few decisions and dissenting opinions.

I feel you were correct - an exemption should not have been allowed. It creates a bad scenario as evidenced by the other umpires that subsequently also filed for an exemption given that one was granted for Hector.

I don't feel you should have resigned - you are not soley responsible for the board's decision. And the board's decision does not directly reflect your character. I feel your resignation may have been compulsive due to your nature to be correct and your likely desire to subsequently be proven correct by the board. The board did not fully agree with you, hence you may have felt that they said you were wrong.

Again, I don't know the full situation. But it seems that you have taken the board's action too personally.

Carl, I have intended no offense and only hope that I have inspired you to reflect a bit less emotionally (just my perspective). I know you will continue to due a great job in all other aspects of your life and officiating. My best to you.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Apr 17th, 2005 at 04:35 PM]

[Lawrence_Dorsey]

I tried several years ago when the CC/Freix flame wars were going on to ask for someone to be the bigger man and give it up. I guess Freix took his toys and went home but CC is still at it.

I respect the heck out of Carl for his knowledge and experience. He was great to work for when I wrote over on the paid portion of the site and given the right circumstances I would consider going back (I think Roland's got things covered for a while ). But the constant back and forth just wears me out.

What did we do before the internet? Well, we missed out on a lot of information, some good sharing of info from across the US, and a lot of pointless bickering. I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Lawrence