Dropped 3rd Strike

[Stripes1950]

I know the answer to my question but I want some backup to show my partner and assignor (one in the same). He asked me for help on a "dropped 3rd" last night. The ball dove into the dirt and the lefthanded batter swung and missed. The catcher picked it clean and threw to second to try to retire R1. I told him that the batter should be called out. He asked me if the ball hit the ground. I said, "Yes, but the catcher caught the ball. The ground has nothing to do with it." He looked at me like I was crazy. He turned and allowed the batter to stay at first. Was I right? Oh, Fed rules. The next batter struck out for the 3rd out. There were two outs at the time so the BR could run on a dropped 3rd.

[Edited by Bob Gingerich on Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:02 AM]

[Macaroo]

Your partner is right.
A pitch that bounces first is treated like a dropped 3rd strike (even if F2 catches it). BR must be thrown out or tagged.

[Kaliix]

If 1st base is occupied at the time of pitch and there is less than two outs, what does it matter if the 3rd strike is dropped?

Didn't you say that the catcher threw to 2nd to get R1. I assume you meant R1 was at first and not the R1 at second dumba$$ FED lingo.

[Kaliix]

Oh, and if you meant R1 at second, then what Macaroo said...

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Bob Gingerich
I know the answer to my question

Apparently not.

but I want some backup to show my partner and assignor (one in the same). He asked me for help on a "dropped 3rd" last night. The ball dove into the dirt and the lefthanded batter swung and missed. The catcher picked it clean and threw to second to try to retire R1. I told him that the batter should be called out. He asked me if the ball hit the ground. I said, "Yes, but the catcher caught the ball. The ground has nothing to do with it." He looked at me like I was crazy. He turned and allowed the batter to stay at first. Was I right? Oh, Fed rules. The next batter struck out for the 3rd out. There were two outs at the time so the BR could run on a dropped 3rd.

[Edited by Bob Gingerich on Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:02 AM]

Think of the rule as an "uncaught" third strike, not a dropped third strike. If the pitch hit the dirt prior to be caught by F2, it is an uncaught third strike, and if the other conditions allow, the batter is now the batter/runner and needs to be tagged or thrown out at first.

[UmpJM]

Bob Gingerich,

I am compelled to agree with Macaroo (as well as your partner/assignor). I understand that you said Fed and not OBR, but I don't have access to the Fed rules at the moment. I will however provide you "backup" with the following OBR cites (Fed does not differ from OBR in respect to the rules governing this situation).

6.05
A batter is out when_ (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; (b) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher; "Legally caught" means in the catcher's glove before the ball touches the ground.

and

Rule 2.0 A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter. If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a "ball." If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05 (c) and 6.09 (b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

You can also check Rule 2.0 "Catch" and "In Flight" as well as 6.09(b).

Although "commonly" referred to as a "dropped third strike", it is much better to "think of it" as a "third strike not caught" (because that's what it really is). Your situation illustrates why.

If I were you, I would take this "backup" to my assignor/partner to demonstrate to him that you are the type of umpire who is willing to look into it when there's a question about the validity of a call you made and that you're still willing to learn. But hey, that's just what I'd do.

Kaliix,

He said there were 2 outs!

JM

(Edited to correct typo)

[Edited by CoachJM on Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:36 AM]

[scyguy]

and Bob G, understand that asking questions on this forum is an excellent way of verfying your thoughts. We are all in the same business, the business of being the best umpires we can be. (hear the music)

[Stripes1950]

Thank you all for the feedback. I will defer to all of your judgments. I stand corrected. I read Fed Rule 2-9-1 as a pitch which hits the ground but handled cleanly by the catcher on a 3rd strike in not a clean catch but the BR now must be tagged or forced at 1st. My partner was correct. By the way, the count was full with two outs and the runner was going from 1st which is what you would expect. The throw from the catcher sailed into CF and the runner took 3rd. The next batter struck out.

[Kaliix]

Ahhh, I missed the two outs part. Sorry about that.

[Stripes1950]

Thanks Kalix. I did edit after I posted and added the part about two outs. Don't know why the catcher didn't tag the batter and don't know why he threw to 2nd. Maybe that's why they call them kids. At any rate, I apparently didn't know the answer.

[Macaroo]

I assumed there were 2 outs, otherwise the PU would have called batter out on the strike 3 and he wouldn't have been asking for help (1B was occupied by R1).