3-man

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by scyguy
ok OZ humor me, what is 2SF? and why would I watch BR from plate to bag that is the UIC's responsibility. I pause, read U3 is froze, then react with the pivot.

2 Steps Fair -- the most popular recent teaching for where to take a play at first.

That said, the two of you might be talking about different plays (clean single vs. infield grounder that gets past first).

[scyguy]

OZ said that BR rips a shot to left-center, why would U1 get 2SF? Anyway, the responsibility for BR from plate to first is NEVER U1's. U1's responsibility starts at bag and beyond. These are two statements that OZ gives that make no sense.

I understand the 3-man is a difficult mechanic, especially when you only do it a few times a year. Hence my original post. Further, in OZ's example, he had a minor league caliber umpire make the mistake. This further supports my concern about revisiting the mechanic.

[Tim C]

My HEAD hurts!!!!

3 man is fun, 3 man is sometimes difficult . . . when done correctly 3 man is beautiful.

I cannot keep up with the thread. With all the R1, R2 and R3 stuff, complicated by UIC and U1 and U3 etc. make me swim.

3 man is more art than science.

3 man means you can always keep an umpire ahead of the play.

As a primer:

With no one on EVERY one has somehwere to go. Seems simple but it becomes complicated.

Simple ground ball to the infield means the PU is coming out following the ball until fielded, U1 is moving while watching the ball to 2SF, U3 is moving towards the infield so he can cover inside if any BR advacnement occurs.

As the throw is made and all umpires have paused, read and reacted so we revert to two man (with U3 inside to cover any further advancement).

If there is a fly PU must simply read his partners and see who goes out . . . then you fill their responsibities on the bases.

As Rich noted, we can go on and on if need but reading the CCA manual and having about a 40 min pregame should make things work . . .

That is UNTIL someone forgets!!!!!

------------------------------------------

BTW, "the responsibility for BR from plate to first is NEVER U1's" is an incorrect statement.

EXAMPLE:

Ball is hit to left field and U3 goes out.

PU will fill in behind and U1 is responsible for not only the touch at first by the BR but any play on him at that base or second base.



[Edited by Tim C on Apr 13th, 2005 at 03:14 PM]

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by scyguy
OZ said that BR rips a shot to left-center, why would U1 get 2SF? Anyway, the responsibility for BR from plate to first is NEVER U1's. U1's responsibility starts at bag and beyond. These are two statements that OZ gives that make no sense.

I understand the 3-man is a difficult mechanic, especially when you only do it a few times a year. Hence my original post. Further, in OZ's example, he had a minor league caliber umpire make the mistake. This further supports my concern about revisiting the mechanic.

You see, it even depends what book you are working out of.

The most common and the easiest to remember

3 man crew
Plate = UIC
1st = U1
3rd = U3

4 man crew
Plate = UIC
1st = U1
2nd = U2
3rd = U3


An old way was
Plate = U1
1st = U2
2nd = U3
3rd = U4
And that got very confusing. It gets even more confusing when you deal with people from different parts of the country.

So in the previous situations U1 was the First Base Umpire and the UIC was the plate umpire.

Okay, it's time for me to go home now, and I am getting tired. Nite, nite!!

[scyguy]

Not convinced, here's one for you. No one on, no outs. B1 rips a hot liner to left center field. U3 buys a ticket to the game and watches the action. U2 is waiting for B1 at 1st as he should. F8 muffs the ball on the ground and B1 thinks 2. U3 is still in La-La land. I'm the UIC and I'm already heading toward 2nd. I know U3 has a bad knee so he's never going to make it. I make the call on a whacker and get the out. We got lucky!

This is what you originally posted as the scenario

then you posted this:
Simple is it? Let's take it down.

1. You are U1, so you are going to go 2SF, watch the BR touch 1st. (because as U1, your eyes are on the BR all the way to the bag)

2. Now you realize the U3 froze, so with the BR runnning at full speed you are going button hook behind the BR and take this guy to 2nd? I don't even know young, in shape Minor League umpires that can do that.

3. Your UIC already saw the problem with U3 and reacted by going to 2nd base.

4. Your UIC left the plate and you released the BR by observng his touch of 1st. U1 now has to cover home!

So....
I'm not sure how you can blame this on the nomenclature. Noone but the umpire at first would go to 2SF, but why if it is a shot to left center?? Why would "your eyes be on the BR all the way to the bag"??

Why would I button behind the BR if I read the third base umpire not reacting?? I have time to decide, even with the fastest of runners.

Your example is flawed. If this is the best example you can come up with as to the difficult nature of the 3-man, then maybe I know it better than I thought. Thanks, you have given me a boost of confidence.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by scyguy
Not convinced, here's one for you. No one on, no outs. B1 rips a hot liner to left center field. U3 buys a ticket to the game and watches the action. U2 is waiting for B1 at 1st as he should. F8 muffs the ball on the ground and B1 thinks 2. U3 is still in La-La land. I'm the UIC and I'm already heading toward 2nd. I know U3 has a bad knee so he's never going to make it. I make the call on a whacker and get the out. We got lucky!

This is what you originally posted as the scenario

then you posted this:
Simple is it? Let's take it down.

1. You are U1, so you are going to go 2SF, watch the BR touch 1st. (because as U1, your eyes are on the BR all the way to the bag)

2. Now you realize the U3 froze, so with the BR runnning at full speed you are going button hook behind the BR and take this guy to 2nd? I don't even know young, in shape Minor League umpires that can do that.

3. Your UIC already saw the problem with U3 and reacted by going to 2nd base.

4. Your UIC left the plate and you released the BR by observng his touch of 1st. U1 now has to cover home!

So....
I'm not sure how you can blame this on the nomenclature. Noone but the umpire at first would go to 2SF, but why if it is a shot to left center?? Why would "your eyes be on the BR all the way to the bag"??

Why would I button behind the BR if I read the third base umpire not reacting?? I have time to decide, even with the fastest of runners.

Your example is flawed. If this is the best example you can come up with as to the difficult nature of the 3-man, then maybe I know it better than I thought. Thanks, you have given me a boost of confidence.

Well, I am glad to see that your confidence level is high now. So on Monday, you will tell us all how you made the crew look like a bunch of pros. I wish you the best of luck - have a good game.
By the way, the example was called clockwise rotation. It's either clockwise or counter clockwise not willy-nilly. But why am I wasting my time, you know it all! Go get em' tiger!

[scyguy]

oh come on OZ can't you take alittle ribbing. Obviously you know tons more than I do. I hope by Sat evening I am feeling good about the games, but I know the 3-man is difficult.
Thanks for your comments and please don't feel you are wasting your time trying to help me. As a community of umpires we need to help one another. If we don't then who will.

[thumpferee]

Since we're on this subject, let me ask if this is how your 3man positioning is.

Nobody on or R3: U1 in A, U3 @ 3rd.

R1, R2, or R1 and R2: U1 in A, U3 in C.

Bases loaded: U3 @3rd, U1 in B.

R1 and R3: U3 @ 3rd, U1 in B.

The reason I ask is, every UIC I have worked with last year had their own way. This is how I see it. Accept maybe with R2 only, U1 in B.

Thanks for your input!

[Rich]

Originally posted by thumpferee
Since we're on this subject, let me ask if this is how your 3man positioning is.

Nobody on or R3: U1 in A, U3 @ 3rd.

R1, R2, or R1 and R2: U1 in A, U3 in C.

Bases loaded: U3 @3rd, U1 in B.

R1 and R3: U3 @ 3rd, U1 in B.

The reason I ask is, every UIC I have worked with last year had their own way. This is how I see it. Accept maybe with R2 only, U1 in B.

Thanks for your input!

The position at 3rd is D.

Anytime I have a runner at 1st, U1 is in A.

The only time I move U1 from A is (1) R2 only and (2) R2 and R3. Then the base umpires are in B and D.

--Rich

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

The position at 3rd is D.

Anytime I have a runner at 1st, U1 is in A.

The only time I move U1 from A is (1) R2 only and (2) R2 and R3. Then the base umpires are in B and D.

--Rich

And, with R1 only, the CCA allows U3 to be in either B or C.

[scyguy]

we have a new AA team in Springfield, Cards farm team. Was watching highlights this AM, and saw U3 in B with R1. Thought it looked unusual but who am I to question.

[Rich]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

And, with R1 only, the CCA allows U3 to be in either B or C.

True, but I'm always afraid the field will start to lean to the right with both base umpires on that side

[thumpferee]

Thanks all!

I figured U3 @ 3rd would be D but was unsure!

Obviously not too much 3 man here, thanks!

I would like to add that two BU on the same side seems a bit unbalanced!

[scyguy]

Sat tourn went great. 4 games, three went extras. Had plate for 1st and 4th games. Had an outstanding time. Rotations went extremely well. In 1st game had a banger at first when kid did not get back in time on a caught fly ball down the right field line. Four quality teams, two were quarterfinalists from last year while the other two were district champs. Temps in mid 70's, beautiful day for baseball. I love being an umpire!