Number of Warm-up pitches?

[LDUB]

Originally posted by officialtony
I do know that I do not want baseballs being thrown around while there are additional personnel moving around on the field for any reason. Consider it my effort at safety for myself as well as others on the field.

Safety? What are you talking about? The only additional personel on the field is the manager who is talking to the pitcher. The Federation ain't that concerned with coach safety as they allow coaches to warm up pitchers without a helmet.

There are about 10,000 dangerous things which go on in each game. It is not your job to be the safety police and try to protect everyone. Last time I checked, it was possible to choke on chewing gum, so I always warn the coaches at the plate meeting that anyone caught with gum will be ejected, as will the manager for allowing his players to partake in such an unsafe practice. It's just my way of protecting everyone.

[Edited by LDUB on Apr 4th, 2005 at 02:06 AM]

[officialtony]

I don't know if " rationale " would be the correct term, but I liken it to having players throwing baseballs around in the infield during the pregame conference at the plate. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of having baseballs being tossed around by any age group when I or others in the infield are focused on other things - like a pitchers conference or any defensive conference. Since the rule applies during pregame, I like to see it applied all the time - again during conferences, not ALL the time. This is strictly MY opinion. There are no SPECIFIC rules in NFHS to support this officially. Am I being an OOO? Geez, I hope not. I should point out that I still do some youth leagues for the local youth baseball federation during their tournament weekends. That may be where I get this " philosophy " from. But I am open to opinions on this.
( Didn't mean to steal someone else's post .)

[officialtony]

Oh side note.
Luke is one on this forum who does not believe any situation should require the use of 10-2-3g. He feels any " competent " official doesn't have to use it. A theory I happen to disagree with, and one which he has failed to respond to my questions.

[officialtony]

LDUB,
Well I would disagree with you. In any sport that I officiate, safety IS MY priority. Mostly because they are young adults or children and as such do not necessarily watch out for themselves or others. I think chewing gum is a ridiculous analogy to my situation, so it's not worth debating. Since I am responsible for controlling what happens on the field while I am there. I try to act where I can control safety issues. I feel this to be one of them. If you don't feel it is an issue for you, let it go.

If the bull pen areas are inside the fence along 1st and 3rd base but in the outfield, do you require a player to watch over the catcher or pitcher ( whoever has his back to the plate )? Do you require him to wear a helmet? Just curious since you are not the safety police. I do. Oh well. we perform our tasks in different ways and I can live with that.

Oh, this situation had come up maybe twice in the last 6 years. Certainly one over which a debate is necessary.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by officialtony
stanump12474
Again, I agree with you.
See previous reply.
10-2-3g is my reference for my decision to not have additional baseballs on the field during Defensive conferences - pitching or otherwise.

Then why is it allowed to have the infield warm up between innings? Both are during "allowed" delays in the game.

I apply NCAA 9-4a AR 6 "During a free trip, a defensive player may warm up with another defensive player, provided it does not delay the game."

[Tim C]

While it is true that I have only worked 3,772 games on large fields only but I have never seen nor needed to refer to 10-2-3g. I know how to umpire and take care of business.

There is no rule that does not allow infoelders the opportunity to warm up during an inning. I would never stop that activity.

As to F2 returning to his position after making the last out of an inning.

I do things differently (that does not mean more correctly) than all of you.

If F2 makes the last out I watch him return to the dugout. I watch to see how fast he is putting on the tolls of ignorance.

As F1 throws to a back-up catcher I let him throw maybe two pitches.

I then walk out to the mound and take all the balls out of my pocket (or ball bag) and ask the pitcher if he is happy with the one he is throwing . . . as he looks at the other pills I say something like, "take your time I am letting 'Gunner' get his gear on."

Usually the pitcher says "thanks" or something like that . . . I then tell the pitcher to fill in the extra holes on the mound and kick some dirt around.

As I walk towards home I look for good old F2 and hope he is on his way back out.

I then tell the back-up F2, "hey here comes 'Gunner'."

Works for me . . . never had an issue with it.

And I have certainly never been called "OOO."

[LDUB]

Originally posted by officialtony
Oh side note.
Luke is one on this forum who does not believe any situation should require the use of 10-2-3g. He feels any " competent " official doesn't have to use it. A theory I happen to disagree with, and one which he has failed to respond to my questions.

No.

You said that you "love" to use this rule.

I said that if you are competent, you will almost never use this rule.

[DG]

Originally posted by officialtony
I don't know if " rationale " would be the correct term, but I liken it to having players throwing baseballs around in the infield during the pregame conference at the plate. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of having baseballs being tossed around by any age group when I or others in the infield are focused on other things - like a pitchers conference or any defensive conference. Since the rule applies during pregame, I like to see it applied all the time - again during conferences, not ALL the time. This is strictly MY opinion. There are no SPECIFIC rules in NFHS to support this officially.

The difference is there is a rule that prohibits players from being on the field during the pregame, much less throwing a ball around. And what about between innings when the 1B man routinely throws grounders to the other infielders. If balls are being thrown around I will be focused on making sure I am standing somewhere where it would be very rare to get hit by a thrown ball (RCF if on bases, on one of the line on plate). I mentioned that I have seen a coach throw a ball to 1B man and he starts playing catch with 2B man. I have also seen the ball thrown into CF and the CF play catch with RF. While this is unusual I see no reason to do anything about it. Lastly, if a coach does this when he first comes off the bench, then has his mound meeting and then calls for the change the new pitcher is likely to get 8-10 more warmup tosses before being called to pitch and if that makes him a better pitcher, or less likely to injure his arm due to only 8 warmups I am all for it.

[Edited by DG on Apr 4th, 2005 at 10:05 PM]

[DG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by officialtony
LDUB,
If the bull pen areas are inside the fence along 1st and 3rd base but in the outfield, do you require a player to watch over the catcher or pitcher? Do you require him to wear a helmet? /QUOTE]Any player in live ball territory is required by rule to wear a helmet, but there is no requirement I am aware of for a 3rd person "protector" for the battery in the bullpen. So No to the first question, and Yes to the second, if there is a 3rd person there. There is also no rule to prohibt a 3rd person so I would not whip 10.2.3g out and prohibit it.

[officialtony]

DG,

Here I go again on the safety thing. I REQUIRE a 3rd player to " protect " whoever has their back to the plate. I want someone watching the ball off the bat on any ball that may come at the player with his back to the plate. And of course, he must have a helmet. I just feel this is the safe thing to do. No rule to cover it by either requiring it or prohibiting it. In my humble opinion, it is the right thing to do.
Thanks.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by LDUB

No.

You said that you "love" to use this rule.

I said that if you are competent, you will almost never use this rule.

Which is the point, i'nit?
While it is true that controling fielders throwing the ball around during a conference would be a job for 9.01c/10-2-3g, no competent umpire would do so.

Don't give me "safety": that is the "religion" of OOO umpires: the last refuge of scoundrels. Just because you chant the mantra "safety" doesn't make it so - no serious person will believe that there is the slightest greater risk [above that inherent in the game itself] from fielders throwing a ball around during a stoppage in play. You are using "safety" the same way you are using 10-2-3: as an excuse for inventing a private rule to demonstrate that you are in charge.

To restate: the reason that Luke is correct, and that Tee has never had occasion to use 10-2-3g/9.01c is that competent umpires don't go looking for things to rule on that aren't covered in the rule book. With an infitessimally small number of exceptions, if it ain't covered in the rule book, you probably don't need to rule on it, even if it actually happens in your game; or if you are forced to rule [because some coach is out there demanding that you stop this "outrage"], the best ruling is "There's no rule that prohibits that, Coach".

[LDUB]

Originally posted by officialtony
DG,

Here I go again on the safety thing. I REQUIRE a 3rd player to " protect " whoever has their back to the plate. I want someone watching the ball off the bat on any ball that may come at the player with his back to the plate. And of course, he must have a helmet. I just feel this is the safe thing to do. No rule to cover it by either requiring it or prohibiting it. In my humble opinion, it is the right thing to do.
Thanks.

You require this but you allow players to chew gum? I would bet that more players choke on chewing gum than get hit in the head with a batted ball, while wearing a glove, and standing 200-300 feet away from home plate in foul territory.

[DG]

Originally posted by officialtony
DG,

Here I go again on the safety thing. I REQUIRE a 3rd player to " protect " whoever has their back to the plate. I want someone watching the ball off the bat on any ball that may come at the player with his back to the plate. And of course, he must have a helmet. I just feel this is the safe thing to do. No rule to cover it by either requiring it or prohibiting it. In my humble opinion, it is the right thing to do.
Thanks.

If safety is your mantra then why not really protect the battery, send 3 or 4 players down there with helmets in case one misses that line drive you are worried about. Better yet tell them they can't use the bullpen, because there is no rule that says they can. Send them to the parking lot to warmup. But wait, they might get hit by a car in the parking lot, so send them to school gym to warmup. No cars or foul balls there. Make sure they take off their spikes before going in the gym and if they ask why tell them 10-2-3g. Geez...

[Edited by DG on Apr 4th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by officialtony
I don't know if " rationale " would be the correct term, but I liken it to having players throwing baseballs around in the infield during the pregame conference at the plate. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of having baseballs being tossed around by any age group when I or others in the infield are focused on other things - like a pitchers conference or any defensive conference. Since the rule applies during pregame, I like to see it applied all the time - again during conferences, not ALL the time. This is strictly MY opinion. There are no SPECIFIC rules in NFHS to support this officially. Am I being an OOO? Geez, I hope not. I should point out that I still do some youth leagues for the local youth baseball federation during their tournament weekends. That may be where I get this " philosophy " from. But I am open to opinions on this.
( Didn't mean to steal someone else's post .)

Do you allow fielders to warm-up between innings? What's the difference? The coach at the mound? C'mon.

As Tee pointed out there is no rule to prohibit this and if anyone was to go overboard with safety rules, it would be FED. Yes, in my opinion, you are being OOO.

[w_sohl]

I may sound ignorant, but what the heck is OOO?