Stance behind the plate

[CentralINRef]

I am starting my first year in baseball and have a question about which stance is more common and what are you opinions about each. I have seen umpires in both the Majors and at the college level us both the box and scissors stance so far this year in games I have watched. Are there any good reasons to use one over the other or is it just personal preference. I have practiced setting up using both at home and I believe I could become comfortable using either. I have the luxury of having to very good veteran umpires helping me in answering questions so far, but one of them uses scissors and the other uses the box stance. One good thing about this is that the association that I have joined for baseball has preseason clinics 5 of which I will be attending. 4 of these clinics are actuall Varsity preseason scrimmage games so I will get some heat of the battle time to test either of both before I do a game that counts. Opinions on this would be much appreciated.

As a new official I would say use the box. I am a long time scissor guy and wouldn't use anything else but to learn the ropes the box is easier. Once you get some time in you may experiment with other things.

[GarthB]

Heel-toe, heel-toe (pro school) or heel-toe, heel-instep (PBUC) both would serve you better than the "box".

[Tim C]

Out of the mouth of babes . . .

The scissors stance is no longer being taught at the professional level.

Umpires below AAA are not allowed to use the stance.

Why?

Easy, insurance claims.

Take a tennis ball and hold it at arms length . . . no problem, right?

Now hold a bowling ball at the same position. A little more difficult, right?

Neck injuries of scissor styled umpires and insurance claims for the repair have eliminated the stance from professional baseball. You want to use the stance? Go ahead.

Professional baseball is moving towards only the heel-to-toe stance and the Gerry Davis Stance as accepted stances for their umpires.

I suggest, strongly, you learn the heel-to-toe and perfect it!

Originally posted by GarthB
Heel-toe, heel-toe (pro school) or heel-toe, heel-instep (PBUC) both would serve you better than the "box".

You are correct Garth, that's why I don't teach cage. I have been in the scissors so long I'm not very good at teaching the standards.
Tim: I know many are going away from the scissors for fear of back and neck injuries, that's why I steered him away from it. I stay in it because my knees just flat can't take it anymore. The ironic thing is I have injured my back during the off season so it may not make a difference.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor

You are correct Garth, that's why I don't teach cage. I have been in the scissors so long I'm not very good at teaching the standards.
Tim: I know many are going away from the scissors for fear of back and neck injuries, that's why I steered him away from it. I stay in it because my knees just flat can't take it anymore. The ironic thing is I have injured my back during the off season so it may not make a difference.

Mike,

I use the Davis stance (used to use the box) but when my back is acting up, I resort back to the scissors. I've had parts missing in my lower back since 1976 so most of my umpiring has revolved around my back. I even had to take a season off in 1998 when I almost wound up back on the operating table.

I changed one thing with the scissors. When I extend my back leg, I only go back far enough so that my heel can sit down rather than be on he toes. It takes a little practice but it takes all the pressure off the lower back. Now, you are set a little high but once you get used to looking down in the zone, it all comes together. Oh, I forgot, I only work 90' diamonds on a regular basis. I've done a couple of LL tournament games this way and it seems to work out okay. Good luck with the back.

[cowbyfan1]

learn the box. good, basic and like said above, stay away from the scissors. Even when pro guys can use the scissors they are not going to it because it is cutting down on careers due to knee, back and neck issues. The scissors will become less used than the knee in the near future.

[Blue37]

Check out these links for an explanation of the Gerry Davis stance:

http://childress.officiating.com/?d=...vis+Part+I.pdf

http://childress.officiating.com/?d=...is+Part+II.pdf

[jicecone]

Play around with all the recommendations here and then develope the "CentralINRef Style". That is the one that is most comfortable for you and gives you the most consistant zone. It also affords you the easist way to get out from behind the plate as quick as possible.

Your aim here is developing consistency, probably more than anything else. If you acheive that and stand on your head, you will most likely not take to much abuse. They may laugh at you a little , but even a good joke gets old after a while.

Now , if your gonna make a career of this. Do it the way your boss wants it done. But even then, "Consistency" will be your goal.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by CentralINRef
I am starting my first year in baseball and have a question about which stance is more common and what are you opinions about each. I have seen umpires in both the Majors and at the college level us both the box and scissors stance so far this year in games I have watched. Are there any good reasons to use one over the other or is it just personal preference. I have practiced setting up using both at home and I believe I could become comfortable using either. I have the luxury of having to very good veteran umpires helping me in answering questions so far, but one of them uses scissors and the other uses the box stance. One good thing about this is that the association that I have joined for baseball has preseason clinics 5 of which I will be attending. 4 of these clinics are actuall Varsity preseason scrimmage games so I will get some heat of the battle time to test either of both before I do a game that counts. Opinions on this would be much appreciated.

I use the "Jerry Davis" stance. Really comfortable, you don't get fatigued and your head height is consistent from first pitch to the last inning. If you use this stance it's important to keep your elbows in and while your hands are resting on your knees they are resting mostly on the outside part. I'm even able to hide my thumbs behind my chin guards. Once in awhile you will get hit in the arm, but as long as you don't get hit on "boney parts" (haven't had this happen yet) you'll be fine.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by jicecone
Play around with all the recommendations here and then develope the "CentralINRef Style". That is the one that is most comfortable for you and gives you the most consistant zone. It also affords you the easist way to get out from behind the plate as quick as possible.

Your aim here is developing consistency, probably more than anything else. If you acheive that and stand on your head, you will most likely not take to much abuse. They may laugh at you a little , but even a good joke gets old after a while.

Now , if your gonna make a career of this. Do it the way your boss wants it done. But even then, "Consistency" will be your goal.

I would disagree with this advice. There are reasons that those stances taught at pro school and PBUC have stood the test time and continue to be taught. Aside from assuring that everyone is evaluated on the same criteria, they, and the GD stance, have proven to offer the best look at pitches with minimum discomfort to the umpire.

As an evaluator, one of the biggest problems I see are umpires who lack formal training attempting to "customize" their stance. They argue that they are doing what "works best for them" until they are taught a correct stance. Then the change in their attitude is amazing.

Get thee to a clinic. Learn a proper stance and how to use it. You will be a better umpire.

[jicecone]

"Get thee to a clinic. Learn a proper stance and how to use it. You will be a better umpire."

And you will have a more consistent zone.

A duck is duck.

Garth is correct. But in all due of respect to him, if by chance you don't make it to a pro camp or PBUC or a clinic, like MOST new officials don't or can't, try doing what is necessary to become the best you can. Chances are real good that you will fall into the category of the majority of officials in this country.

Its always nice to drive a Cadilac, it's even nicer to own one. Bottom line though, you have to decide how you get there.

[CentralINRef]

I should start out first saying that one of the guys that is mentoring me went to Evans 2 years ago and that he is teaching me the heel toe heel toe stance not the box as I stated previously. This is the one I am most comfortable with as of now and what I will probably use as I start my clinic games.

The only reason that I asked about the scissors stance is that my I guess you could say main mentor uses this stance. He is a very accomplished umpire working 3 super regionals and 6 regionals at the college level. I also went and watched the local college team play yestarday just to see the umpires work and the UIC used the scissors stance. He was a conference USA official but I did not get to meet him to ask him about his preference for this. Thanks ot everyone that has replied so far and any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Kaliix]

As long as you have a consistent strike zone (and can get out from behind the plate well enough), it shouldn't matter what "stance" you use. The ones they teach at Pro-School are certainly good places to start and will be the best for the majority of umpires.

Start with one of the popular stances and then once you get used to calling pitches, modify it so that the stance you use feels best to you and allows you to call a consistent strike zone.

Making an analogy to golf, there are certain positions in a golf swing that one has to get to, to hit a good shot. Most golfers have what could be considered a traditional type swing. But players like Jim Furyk, John Daly, Calvin Peete and Lee Trevino have made millions with non-traditional swings that work for them.

Start with the basics and then find your stance.

Originally posted by GarthB

I would disagree with this advice. There are reasons that those stances taught at pro school and PBUC have stood the test time and continue to be taught. Aside from assuring that everyone is evaluated on the same criteria, they, and the GD stance, have proven to offer the best look at pitches with minimum discomfort to the umpire.

As an evaluator, one of the biggest problems I see are umpires who lack formal training attempting to "customize" their stance. They argue that they are doing what "works best for them" until they are taught a correct stance. Then the change in their attitude is amazing.

Get thee to a clinic. Learn a proper stance and how to use it. You will be a better umpire.