Referee magazine quiz

[David Emerling]

I was reading through some questions on a quiz put out by Referee magazine. One of them caught my attention. I would like some opinions.

http://www.referee.com/quiz/Images/baseball2005.pdf

Which of the choices apply to FED and OBR?

#12 With R2 on second, B1 slaps a grounder to F6, who runs toward second with R2 retreating. F6 then throws blindly to first and the ball goes into dead-ball territory. At the time of the throw, B1 had already touched first.
a. F6's run toward R2 is a play.
b. F6's run toward R2 is not a play; the throw is the first play.
c. R2 is awarded third.
d. R2 is awarded home.
e. B1 is awarded second.
f. B1 is awarded third.
g. B1 is awarded home.

Again - which of the above apply to FED? Which of the above apply to OBR?

I'd be curious as to some of the answers we get for this one.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[LDUB]

This is too vague to know if it is a play or not.

If F6 was trying to just look back R2, then it is no play in FED and OBR. If he was running to tag R2 then it is a play. I don't think one can judge this one without actually seeing the play. Either way, it will be two bases either from TOP or TOT, therefore C and G are obviously wrong.

FED (3.3.4H) and OBR (PBUC 3.1, J/R chapter 8) both treat this situation the same.

[Rich Ives]

Per BRD:

FED says running toward the runner is a play.

OBR says it is NOT a play unless there is a tag attempt.




So my take is:

For FED the throw is the second play so: a, d, f

For OBR the throw is the first play so: b, d, e

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Per BRD:

FED says running toward the runner is a play.

Incorrect Rich. Read note 41.

[Rich Ives]

Are you basing your point on Carl's rant? Maybe I'm reading his rant incorrectly, but here's how I see it:

Carl's rant is about Website #10 saying a faked or feinted throw is a play while 8.3.4h says a feint is not a throw. His recommendation is to ignore Website #10 and use casebook 8.3.4h.


HOWEVER

The question at hand is not about a faked or feinted throw, it is about whether the physical movement by F6 toward R2 constitutes a play. The issue is thus the movement, not a faked or feinted throw. This then comes under the "Website 2003, #7" (not the #10 in the rant) interp that says that a fielder with the ball walking a few steps toward a runner does constitute a play. As such, the wild throw to F3 is a second play under the FED interp.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Are you basing your point on Carl's rant? Maybe I'm reading his rant incorrectly, but here's how I see it:

Carl's rant is about Website #10 saying a faked or feinted throw is a play while 8.3.4h says a feint is not a throw. His recommendation is to ignore Website #10 and use casebook 8.3.4h.


HOWEVER

The question at hand is not about a faked or feinted throw, it is about whether the physical movement by F6 toward R2 constitutes a play. The issue is thus the movement, not a faked or feinted throw. This then comes under the "Website 2003, #7" (not the #10 in the rant) interp that says that a fielder with the ball walking a few steps toward a runner does constitute a play. As such, the wild throw to F3 is a second play under the FED interp.

My bad. Change my vote to a play for FED.

[Kaliix]

I understand what point they were trying to make with the question. However, the question of whether or not it is a play, in this instance, really has no bearing on the play under OBR, as the BR has reached first before the throw. Once that happens, the award is two from the time of throw, regardless of whether it was the first play or not, because the BR reached first. Hence D and F.

For FED, the BR and every runner must reach their advance base before the time of throw, for the award to be two bases from TOT. Since that isn't the case, Rule 8 Art 5-b states that the for the purpose of the rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. Since taking steps toward second is not part of fielding the ball (atleast considering a normal fielding play), it should be considered a play. Hence A, D, F.

I will say that the play is poorly written as they never state when F6 actually fielded the ball. I know what they meant, that F6 fielded the ball and then ran towards second, but it could be argued that F6 was running towards second to field the ball and R2 was retreating because he still thought he would be put out if he didn't retreat.

[Rich Ives]

"under OBR, as the BR has reached first before the throw. Once that happens, the award is two from the time of throw, regardless of whether it was the first play or not, because the BR reached first. Hence D and F."

NO.

APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

R2 didn't advance - it's from TOP in OBR.

[David Emerling]

Did anybody actually follow the link and look at the pdf file?

Referee provides the answers to their own quiz on the last page.

According to Referee Magazine, the answer to #12 is ...

b, c, e - for both FED and OBR.

They are awarding R2 3rd base! Whether you believe the play by F6 is the first or second play is immaterial as to R2's base award. He gets two bases! He should score.

And, I agree, not enough information is given regarding F6's action.

If you interpret F6 to be making an initial play ... B1 should be awarded 2nd and R2 scores.

If you interpret F6 to be making a second play ... B1 should be awarded 3rd and R2 still scores.

Screwed up question and I think the answer is patently wrong no matter HOW you interpret F6's actions.

R2 must score.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Kaliix]

You know, it was late and I was trying to finish the response before I went to sleep. I thought I read it correctly, but even when I posted, I had a little doubt somewhere. I'll check my rulebook again when I go home, but I concede your likely right.

Originally posted by Rich Ives
"under OBR, as the BR has reached first before the throw. Once that happens, the award is two from the time of throw, regardless of whether it was the first play or not, because the BR reached first. Hence D and F."

NO.

APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

R2 didn't advance - it's from TOP in OBR.

[Dave Hensley]

Referee's propensity to get its rulings wrong has become almost comical. Perhaps it's time for Garth, master of the nicknames, to come up with an appropriate one for Referee.

Perhaps "Refewrong?"

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
Referee's propensity to get its rulings wrong has become almost comical. Perhaps it's time for Garth, master of the nicknames, to come up with an appropriate one for Referee.

Perhaps "Refewrong?"

To the ole tune "I am a Happy Traveler"

Referee...., Referwrong......, Referee.....,
Referwrong, wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong.

Referee.........

All together now!!!!

[Two Call]

There seem to be a lot of very good rules guys on this board. Have any of you contacted Referee about doing some writing? Just a thought. You could only do better.

[hardball3b]

And now ya'll know why many of us have stopped subscribing to REFEREE!