What's the call?

[David B]

Saw a variation on the pitching move last summer and I had almost forgotten.

Tonight at a basketball game I ran into the head baseball coach and he was still giving me a hard time about my call.

Here's the play.

R3 and F1 toes the rubber in windup position with hands together in front of his body.

F1 then steps back with his pivot foot and hesitates for an instant.

F1 then swings his arms up and in one motion makes a move to F5 who tags the runner out by several steps.

What's your call?


The first time I saw it I thought that's a balk, but I let it go, but a few games later when I was PU they ran the same play and I called it a balk.

Coach of course says "we've been running this play all year and nobody has called a balk"

Let me be the first then. I tried to explain to the coach that they were violating 6-2-5 - basically simulating a pitch without being on the rubber.

So what is the call? I want to get all of our umpires on the same page next week at our meeting.

Thanks
David

[cowbyfan1]

He stepped off with is pivot foot and went straight to 3rd. Good move. If he started a pitching movement after he stepped off, ie raises his arms like he was starting his wind up, then I say you are right in nailing him.

I have seen similiar moves and it is deceiving. The runner would need to be taught to watch the feet. That in itself could be enough to call a balk, but he did step off so I feel he is good.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by David B
Saw a variation on the pitching move last summer and I had almost forgotten.

Tonight at a basketball game I ran into the head baseball coach and he was still giving me a hard time about my call.

Here's the play.

R3 and F1 toes the rubber in windup position with hands together in front of his body.

F1 then steps back with his pivot foot and hesitates for an instant.

F1 then swings his arms up and in one motion makes a move to F5 who tags the runner out by several steps.

What's your call?


The first time I saw it I thought that's a balk, but I let it go, but a few games later when I was PU they ran the same play and I called it a balk.

Coach of course says "we've been running this play all year and nobody has called a balk"

Let me be the first then. I tried to explain to the coach that they were violating 6-2-5 - basically simulating a pitch without being on the rubber.

So what is the call? I want to get all of our umpires on the same page next week at our meeting.

Thanks
David

First of all, this is probably one of those had to be there situations but, I'll give it a shot.

Did the pitcher simulate his motion used in a windup after he stepped off? Then by all means it was a balk. Or did the pitcher, (and from your description it sounds this way) just raise his arms to throw. Which I believe he would have had to do to get the ball to third. After making that decision, the rest would be easy.

I have caught pitchers begining their motion and at the same time step off and throw to third. Which does'nt seem to be the case here.

[JJ]

If YOU thought that bringing his hands up was deceiving the runner, then you made the right call balking him. It's like a pitch that gets thrown behind a batter; if YOU think it was a message pitch based on what's been going on in the game, then odds are so did others, and a warning would be in order, if for no other reason than to head off future problems. It's what YOU think that counts here, and it's better to err on the side of prevention.

[David B]

Originally posted by jicecone

First of all, this is probably one of those had to be there situations but, I'll give it a shot.

Did the pitcher simulate his motion used in a windup after he stepped off? Then by all means it was a balk. Or did the pitcher, (and from your description it sounds this way) just raise his arms to throw. Which I believe he would have had to do to get the ball to third. After making that decision, the rest would be easy.

I have caught pitchers begining their motion and at the same time step off and throw to third. Which does'nt seem to be the case here.

Very good points from everyone.

I wasn't as clear as I should have been about the arms. He actually started his motion just like a pitch.

That's why as BU I could not really tell that and did not call anything.

Then as PU, it completely fooled me, I thought he was starting a pitch as I did not see him sneak his pivot foot backward.

Of course then the coach's good question was, "why didn't you call it a balk the other night?"

I have seen guys raise their hands and move the pivot foot back at about the same time, but this was the first time i had actually seen a designed play where he moves his pivot back and then hesitates about a second or two before beginning the motion and then throwing to 3rd.

Thanks for the help, we'll make sure everyone knows what's going on this season and get it right.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally posted by David B
Very good points from everyone.

I wasn't as clear as I should have been about the arms. He actually started his motion just like a pitch.

That's why as BU I could not really tell that and did not call anything.

Thanks
David [/B]

Let's be careful here: references to "his motion" are sufficient but not necessary to call a balk. He could use somebody else's motion off the rubber and still be guilty of a balk. The language of 8.05g is "makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch." I was taught to interpret this as saying that if in my judgment the motion looked like a pitch -- even if it is not pitcher's "usual" motion -- then it's a balk when he's off the rubber. In other words, stress "naturally associated with" rather than "HIS" pitch.

In fact, the pitcher can change his motion on every pitch if he wants to, so it's silly to try to compare one motion with the next. I've even had a base coach say: "he changed his motion, that's a balk!" It's at moments like that when I begin to have more sympathy with Tee's philosophy of "rats." (not that he invented it, just that he's a prominent advocate...)

[jicecone]

[/B]

Let's be careful here: references to "his motion" are sufficient but not necessary to call a balk. He could use somebody else's motion off the rubber and still be guilty of a balk. [/B]

Ump: Time, "thats a balk".

Coach: "For What?"

Ump : "Trying to simulate the other pitchers motion"

Coach: "Whos motion?"

Ump: "The other pitcher, whats his name"

Coach: "Who?"

Im waiting for Abbott and Costello to jump in here any minute. I think I understand what your saying, I'm just confused about what you talking.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by David B
Then as PU, it completely fooled me, I thought he was starting a pitch as I did not see him sneak his pivot foot backward.
[/B]

I think your statement sums it up. You, as the PU, were fooled into thinking F1 was coming with a pitch. Good call.

I have seen the move you are talking about and it is a balk. Whether he starts before he steps off or after, if it looks a motion then nail him.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David B
I wasn't as clear as I should have been about the arms. He actually started his motion just like a pitch.

Then it was a balk. No question.

That's why as BU I could not really tell that and did not call anything.

Now I'm confused -- how could you not see this as BU? If F1 is throwing to third, (generally) the motion is to raise the throwing hand to about the ear, turn, step and throw (all in one motion). The glove hand is not raised.

If F1 is pitching (or feinting a pitch), (generally) the motion is to raise both hands above the head -- a BU can see that.

[David B]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Then it was a balk. No question.

Now I'm confused -- how could you not see this as BU? If F1 is throwing to third, (generally) the motion is to raise the throwing hand to about the ear, turn, step and throw (all in one motion). The glove hand is not raised.

If F1 is pitching (or feinting a pitch), (generally) the motion is to raise both hands above the head -- a BU can see that.

Good point Bob. BU should be able to see it. In reality I was not paying close attention and after the move I said that's a balk, but I let it go.

I talked with my PU later and he made the typical comment "but he stepped back first."

When I told the coach I would get a rule reference for him later, he told me they had used it all year in HS and never had it called. That surprised me since his team made it all the way to the playoffs in 2A.

I got him the rule, he used the move anyway. Guess he thought I was bluffing.

Thanks
David