Lack of Proper Equipment

dddunn3d · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 07:02pm

Let's say that in the 3rd inning F2 takes a hard foul ball off his helmet/mask combo breaking it so that it becomes unusable. That team does not have another catcher mask/helmet, etc. The NFHS is very clear when a player refuses to use required equipment, but what happens when that equipment is not available? Are there any guidelines as how to proceed?

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 07:10pm

Borrow one from the other team.

danreeves1973 · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 08:20pm

Gotta agree, beg borrow or steal one, try and let the kid play. DO NOT ever sacrafice safety though.

Had a similar situation in Dixie last year, 13-14 yr olds. Catcher comes out to warm up, and I notice he has ump shin guards on, no plate at the bottom. Kid said he caught three or four games already that year with them. We stopped the game, chewed on the coach a bit and our league president scrambled and found the kid a pair from our equipment storage so he could play. Two weeks later I call another game for them, and hes got the wrong shin guards on again. Coach got talked to, their league pres got a call from ours. Situation like that I put it all on the coach, his job to outfit his players.

DG · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 09:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by danreeves1973
Gotta agree, beg borrow or steal one, try and let the kid play. DO NOT ever sacrafice safety though.

Had a similar situation in Dixie last year, 13-14 yr olds. Catcher comes out to warm up, and I notice he has ump shin guards on, no plate at the bottom. Kid said he caught three or four games already that year with them. We stopped the game, chewed on the coach a bit and our league president scrambled and found the kid a pair from our equipment storage so he could play. Two weeks later I call another game for them, and hes got the wrong shin guards on again. Coach got talked to, their league pres got a call from ours. Situation like that I put it all on the coach, his job to outfit his players.

And where in the rules does it specify what kind of shin gaurds the catcher must wear?

Tim C · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 10:43pm

Me too, me too . . .

He will say, "in that LEAGUE they require . . . "

Another OOO hits the broadband.

Tee

danreeves1973 · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 10:49pm

I'll agree that it doesn't say what the shin guards have to specifically have on them, just that they cover the knee when squatting. (DYB rules, 1.17) It seemed more of a common sense thing to me at the time. If I'm worried enough behind the plate about getting hit in the ankle/instep to wear plate shoes or shin guards with a instep plate, then the catcher should definitely have the protection.

LDUB · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 03, 2005, 11:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by danreeves1973
If I'm worried enough behind the plate about getting hit in the ankle/instep to wear plate shoes or shin guards with a instep plate, then the catcher should definitely have the protection.

Well yeah he should have protection, but it ain't your job to enforce made up rules.

dddunn3d · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 09:11am

Of course, the number one consideration is always safety. But if the other team's manager is a first-class AH, and refuses to let his equipment be used by the other team, then what? I can't see where an umpire could force equipment sharing. I would be inclined to use 4-2-3 as a guide in determining if the game should be called or suspended.

Upon further review, the NFHS rules seem to put these kinds of situations into each state association's purview.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 4th, 2005 at 09:24 AM]

Peruvian · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 10:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by LDUB

Well yeah he should have protection, but it ain't your job to enforce made up rules. [/B]

Sure it is. It's called 9.01c.

jicecone · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Of course, the number one consideration is always safety. But if the other team's manager is a first-class AH, and refuses to let his equipment be used by the other team, then what? I can't see where an umpire could force equipment sharing. I would be inclined to use 4-2-3 as a guide in determining if the game should be called or suspended.

Upon further review, the NFHS rules seem to put these kinds of situations into each state association's purview.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 4th, 2005 at 09:24 AM]

Another TWP???

ddd If you spent as much studying the rules as you do creating TWP's, you would know that a SOME POINT, commmon sense has to prevail.

I know everyone is going to jump all over me for this but for heaven sake son use some common sense.

Wonder if the AH coach on the way out of the dugout had a heart attack and never gets a chance to say you can't use their equipment, What should we do??? Common Sense, Common Sense. Put orange cones around the coach, declare that dead ball territory , grab the catchers equipment and play on. ??????????????????????????????

mcrowder · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 10:44am

Peruvian, surely you were kidding, but I didn't see a smiley. Don't you think it's a bit heavyhanded for an umpire to make decisions about the bottom of a catcher's equipment and enforce it via 9.1.c? It's not our business to add rules to the book - and the catcher was wearing the required equipment here.

gordon30307 · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 11:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
Peruvian, surely you were kidding, but I didn't see a smiley. Don't you think it's a bit heavyhanded for an umpire to make decisions about the bottom of a catcher's equipment and enforce it via 9.1.c? It's not our business to add rules to the book - and the catcher was wearing the required equipment here.

If I thought that a catcher was not wearing the proper equipment no way that I let him catch. The safety of the players comes first. The obvious solution is to share equipment. Had this happen a number of times and it's never been a problem. If the other team refuses. I'm leaving no way I'm exposing myself to litigation for a few bucks. Risk VS. Reward makes no sense.

ozzy6900 · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 12:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Of course, the number one consideration is always safety. But if the other team's manager is a first-class AH, and refuses to let his equipment be used by the other team, then what? I can't see where an umpire could force equipment sharing. I would be inclined to use 4-2-3 as a guide in determining if the game should be called or suspended.

Upon further review, the NFHS rules seem to put these kinds of situations into each state association's purview.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 4th, 2005 at 09:24 AM]

Let's end this -
It is NOT the duty of the opposing manager to lend his equipment out. If he doesn't want to that's fine.

It IS the duty of the umpire to ensure safety at all youth levels.

Missing safety equipment - no game! Not a forfet - just NO GAME.

Damn TWP's!

GarthB · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 12:45pm

Unless your local little boy league has a specific rule describing in detail that the catcher's shinguards must cover his instep, an umpire has no right, not even under 9.01(C), to get involved.

Panamanian, Peruvian, whatever, 9.01 (C) is designed to cover instances were no rules apply, not to amend existing rules. You can't use 9.01 (C)to alter an existing equipment rule because you disagree with it.

OOO's and TWP's. Getting more and more like Sleazeteamz everyday. All we need now are more LL coaches.

Lord help us.

dddunn3d · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 04, 2005, 02:56pm

Back when I was managing base(daddy)ball teams this exact situation happened. We had both the old style skull-cap/mask and a hockey type catcher's helmet. First inning the snaps on the helmet give out, third inning a strap on the mask breaks. We were the home team, leading and far out-matched the competition. The opposing manager said no way is he going to let us break his equipment. Umpire ruled no game. We protested and got it changed to a suspended game but it was never made up. Consequently our standing in the league suffered. So don't think that anytime something out of the ordinary is posted here, or on any baseball board for that matter, that it's immediately TWP territory.

Do you actually think, in this day and age, if a HS manager needing to avoid a loss to make the playoffs would not avail himself of any rule twisting that he could think of? Back in the day, I myself twisted the more obscure and arcane rules to my advantage, especially when dealing with an umpire I thought had little or no clue. I earned that 'RAT' title several times over, and was able to come away with a few more wins for my teams because of it.

Now that I have come over the wall, I am trying to gauge how officious I need to be for FED ball. Generraly, working with the youngsters and their coaches(dads) was plenty easy: just show up in that sharp uniform with those certification patches and they figured "Can't mess with him easily, he knows his stuff." It was because those coaches aren't trying to make a living coaching, they're there to have some father-son bonding, have a good time, be entertained, etc. They don't have that same pressure to win that the HS manager may have.

So there's my perspective in a nutshell. This will be my first year doing FED games, and I don't want to be one of those aforementioned umpires "in the headlights."