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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 09:43am
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Ortisz attempts to steal second and Posada's throw is high and almost goes into center. Jeter made a great play and did an outstanding job of selling the play. Replays to me were inconclusive. I was really surprised that the second base umpire called him out. I think with a bad throw and a banger most of the time the runner is safe because he looks safe. What did you guys think?
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 09:47am
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Oh my god. Inconclusive? Did you have an entirely different set of replays from everyone else? 1) the "tag" was absolutely late - Ortiz's foot was on the base long before Jeter's glove was in the area, and 2) Jeter's glove was only IN THE AREA - he totally missed the tag.
And don't think I'm saying this because I'm a homer for the Sox - I don't care who wins the ALCS, other than I'd like to see whoever wins to waste as much pitching as possible. I'm rooting for whichever NLCS team gets through - hopefully the Astros. This was a steal (the first by Ortiz since, uh, what, Ever?) and Ortiz was completely robbed by a call that was deplorable in so many ways.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 09:55am
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I have to say that I was surprised as well that an out call was made.
What I commented on at the time was that 1)Ortiz stealing probably caught everyone by surprise and that 2)Randy Marsh was a)screened, atleast partially, on the play by Jeter and b)was moving at the time of the tag. I closely watched the replay from the center field angle and Marsh never came set to make the call. Replay clearly so Ortiz as safe. What are ya gonna do...
__________________
Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know. ~Socrates
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 09:58am
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Maybe, But in real time he could look safe or out. My point is that with a bad throw from the stands he "looked safe". I was surprised he was called out. Normally, you aren't rewarded with an out when the throw is high and the tag is questionable.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 10:02am
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These guys are great, but...
Quote:
All of my replays showed him sliding head first! Yes, the call was close. Yes, the call was wrong. I'm not sure how it was deplorable in so many ways. he was safe and he was called out. There was simply no recourse on that judgement call. Just like the called third check swing on Ortiz earlier in the game. Replay is a wonderful thing.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 10:05am
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There was simply no recourse on that judgement call.
But Windy, shouldn't one of his partners have stepped in and offered help on such a blatent miscarraige of justice? Just having some fun on a rainy morning!
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 10:34am
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"There was simply no recourse on that judgement call."
I was very clear and deliberate with my wording. I have long advocated helping your partners on butchered calls that permit recourse. As we have discussed, ad nauseum, this is and has never been an applicable play. We know which plays are appealable and correctable. For all you Little Leaguers out there (sorry, that's my best Steve Stone impersonation) the only way you should offer help is if you have a loose ball on this play and the calling umpire was quick on the trigger. We've all made that mistake when we started out, so I'm not pointing fingers. It's raining in our neck of the woods, as well. No golf...no work, today...no problem.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 10:36am
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Quote:
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 10:54am
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Maybe, But in real time he could look safe or out. My point is that with a bad throw from the stands he "looked safe". I was surprised he was called out. Normally, you aren't rewarded with an out when the throw is high and the tag is questionable.
So Gordon are you saying that you base your calls on what the appearance of the play looked like from the stands? Do you strive to make the correct call( as best we can) or are you out there to please the stands by calling it the way you think they saw it? There are many instances that dont look good but yet result in the objective being met, such as a catcher set up inside and the pitch hits the outside causing the catcher to reach back. Now do you call that a ball because from the stands the pitcher missed his target and it appeared the catcher had to reach way outside. Help us all and make calls as you see them and not by any baseball myths.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 11:28am
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Wow...that was your first post?
It looks and sounds like someone changed a screen name. Either that, or you know Gordon personally and are bustin' your cherry on a pretty touchy issue. I don't think that there is anyone here that didn't "guess" at a play at one time or another. When we're green, we react differently to the crowd, players and coaches. But, we've all let the player's sell help make our call. There has been dicussion about rewarding the better play or penalizing the mistake. We've talked about using those subtle and not so subtle tells to aid us in our calls (Did he tag the player twice? Did the runner ask for time immediately? etc.) It's true that less experienced umpires often anticipate rather than react. Marsh is one of the best and he showed all of us that there is no perfect angle. He blew it and heard the hoots for it. I'll still keep watching and cheering.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 11:34am
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Quote:
On a banger where the throw is high and the tag is high everyone (players, both coaches and spectators even your partners) expect the runner to be called safe. If you strongly feel he's out call him out but be prepared for an arguement. Using your example of a pitch above you better have a good catcher that makes that pitch look good. I gurantee at a high school varsity or college game if the catcher is lunging and you call a strike your going to hear it from the dugout. If you are making calls that "aren't expected" (judgement calls not rules) I gurantee that the coaches from both teams won't be comfortable. Also these are not "myths" this is protocol that is constantly evolving.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 11:49am
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Well that makes your job real easy then, because you can make the calls the way it appears to everyone else and avoid any conflict what so ever, everyones happy yay! How about getting the call right, I have no problems talking to anyone why I made a call the way I did if I knew the call to be correct. Im not gonna make a call based on how it appeared so I can avoid conflict.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 12:11pm
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In my experience, it is usually the opposite, Gordon.
At the younger levels, if the ball beats the kid to the bag, the coach wants and expects that the runner will be called out, regardless of the tag. At college and above, most of the coaches I've encountered recognize that a whole lot can happen. The fielder may swipe, but the runner went to the back of the bag with his right hand. If you've noticed Joe West during last night's BoSox/Yankees game, he was even coming in and leaning down for routine plays and toss backs. Nothing is taken for granted anymore. The coach may still come out and argue that it was agreat throw and it clearly beat the runner, but you can say, "Skip, I got a great look and it was a terrific slide to the back of the bag, it was the only way he could beat that throw and he did. I saw it the whole way." Again, don't anticipate that it was a spectacular or horrible throw. Let the play happen and tell everyone what you saw.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 12:56pm
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I think Nelson banged him because he couldn't believe that this bubba was making an effort to steal second base at such a critical time in the ball game. Just another dumb move by the ingenious Francoma. G.
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Tue Oct 19, 2004, 01:19pm
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Quote:
no PU ever called a strike above the belt. The rule book to paraphrase said the high point was at the "letters". At that time if you called a stirke "at the letters" your crew chief would talk to you your supervisor would talk to you etc. Even though as per rules you would be correct. It was expected by all that a pitch above the belt was a ball. I gurantee if you kept it up you wouldn't be in the show for long. Even though you were right. Now if you want to be the "lone voice in the wilderness" I gurantee you will be in the wilderness. Remember don't be like the salmon and swim upstream. When the salmon gets there he dies.
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