Another Inquiry on the balk?

[hawk0213]

I am new to this site, so I apologize if this has already been talked about.

I am a summer league high school baseball coach, using high school rules.

With a runner on first, three times I ahd a runner picked off because the RHP pitcher would pivot on the rubber with his pivot foot when he threw to first. His foot never left the rubber. This happened three times. The first two times I went and talked to ump between innings and finally the last time I stormed onto the field, only to have the umpire say that he has been umping for longer than I have been alive.(i didnt understand the relevance) He said he would not argue because it was not a balk. So I left the field, and my kids got three steps off the base the rest of the game. Is it a balk or a pickoff move I should be teaching the kids?

My next question involves a LHP who during his windup he would pause in the middle of his delivery(at the balance point) and I understand that it is part of his "natural movement" but on one pitch he came to his balance point paused and then lost his balance on his back leg and he ended moving back and forth(on one leg) trying to catch his balance. Literally for four or five seconds he wobbled and then finally threw a strike three(somehow). Is there a ruling for that?

And finally when recieving the signs on the rubber, doesnt the ball have to either be in the glove or behind the back? An opposing pitcher had the ball in his throwing hand and it was swinging back and forth while he was recieving the sign. I didnt complain because it wasnt a huge deal but just for the sake of being technical, is that legal?

Thank You
Jon

[LDUB]

Originally posted by hawk0213
With a runner on first, three times I ahd a runner picked off because the RHP pitcher would pivot on the rubber with his pivot foot when he threw to first. His foot never left the rubber. This happened three times. The first two times I went and talked to ump between innings and finally the last time I stormed onto the field, only to have the umpire say that he has been umping for longer than I have been alive.(i didnt understand the relevance) He said he would not argue because it was not a balk. So I left the field, and my kids got three steps off the base the rest of the game. Is it a balk or a pickoff move I should be teaching the kids?

It is legal, as long as the pitcher steps toward first base. You have to be somewhat limber to do this, so it might not work for everyone.

Originally posted by hawk0213
My next question involves a LHP who during his windup he would pause in the middle of his delivery(at the balance point) and I understand that it is part of his "natural movement" but on one pitch he came to his balance point paused and then lost his balance on his back leg and he ended moving back and forth(on one leg) trying to catch his balance. Literally for four or five seconds he wobbled and then finally threw a strike three(somehow). Is there a ruling for that?

6-1-2 says that the pitcher must pitch withought interruption or alteration. I would not do anything to the pitcher in the situation you described. If he is in the windup, there is probally no one on base, and as long as he gets the ball to the batter it is good enought for me.

Originally posted by hawk0213
And finally when recieving the signs on the rubber, doesnt the ball have to either be in the glove or behind the back? An opposing pitcher had the ball in his throwing hand and it was swinging back and forth while he was recieving the sign. I didnt complain because it wasnt a huge deal but just for the sake of being technical, is that legal?

The ball may be in either his hand or his glove. But his pitching hand should be at his side or behind his back. That is what you could get the balk call on. It techincally is a balk, but it is commonly overlooked.

[hawk0213]

IF you can be on the rubber wehn you throw over then why do they say you have to stepoff to throw over? Every book I have read says that the pivot foot must clear the rubber in order to throw over?

I am in no position to question professionals and therefore I wont but is there any publishings or direct quotes that support this rule?

A book by Joe "Spanky" Mcfarland, a longtime college baseball coach, states in his book "Coaching Pitchers", "The pivot foot must clear the rubber, and the stride foot must go toward first base to avoid a balk."

Any help with clarification would be appreciated.

Jon

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by hawk0213
IF you can be on the rubber wehn you throw over then why do they say you have to stepoff to throw over? Every book I have read says that the pivot foot must clear the rubber in order to throw over?

I am in no position to question professionals and therefore I wont but is there any publishings or direct quotes that support this rule?

A book by Joe "Spanky" Mcfarland, a longtime college baseball coach, states in his book "Coaching Pitchers", "The pivot foot must clear the rubber, and the stride foot must go toward first base to avoid a balk."

Any help with clarification would be appreciated.

Jon

Because "they" [who say F1 must step off on a pick off move] are idiots.

I suggest that you add a Rule Book to your reading list. Once you do, your "every book I've read" statement will no longer be true.

ORB 8.05(c): "[It is a balk when...] the pitcher, while touching his plate [the rubber], fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base."

The comment/ casebook annexed to this rule makes it clear that F1 MAY step off, in which case any number of otherwise illegal acts are now legal. But NOWHERE in any rule book is F1 REQUIRED to step off the rubber before THROWING, provided he takes the required step toward the base.

HS[Fed] version of this rule is 6-2-4(b). Fed 6-1-3 explicitly says that F1 may "turn on his pivot foot ... to step with his non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing ..."

With runners on, I am presuming that F1 is NOT pitching from the wind-up [iow, he's going from the set]. 'Cause under Fed rules, F1 cannot do anything other than pitch from the wind up without steping off the rubber with his pivot foot first.

Maybe ol' Spanky was the victim of a bad editor, who substituted "and" for "or"?

Hope this helps.

--Carter

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 8th, 2004 at 05:31 PM]

[jicecone]

Originally posted by hawk0213
IF you can be on the rubber wehn you throw over then why do they say you have to stepoff to throw over? Every book I have read says that the pivot foot must clear the rubber in order to throw over?

I am in no position to question professionals and therefore I wont but is there any publishings or direct quotes that support this rule?

A book by Joe "Spanky" Mcfarland, a longtime college baseball coach, states in his book "Coaching Pitchers", "The pivot foot must clear the rubber, and the stride foot must go toward first base to avoid a balk."

Any help with clarification would be appreciated.

Jon

Not quite sure what ole Spanky is talking about, but once the pitchers pivot clears the back of the rubber, (I assume he meant that), then the pitcher can stick his other foot in his ear and still throw to first.Throw directly from the pitching plate, the pitcher MUST step and then throw to first.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by hawk0213
IF you can be on the rubber wehn you throw over then why do they say you have to stepoff to throw over? Every book I have read says that the pivot foot must clear the rubber in order to throw over?

I am in no position to question professionals and therefore I wont but is there any publishings or direct quotes that support this rule?

A book by Joe "Spanky" Mcfarland, a longtime college baseball coach, states in his book "Coaching Pitchers", "The pivot foot must clear the rubber, and the stride foot must go toward first base to avoid a balk."

Any help with clarification would be appreciated.

Jon

Why does WHO say the pitcher MUST step off? Whoever they are, they are wrong.

You want "publishings or direct quotes" to support the rule? I've got an idea; how about reading the rule book?

[hawk0213]

Relax, Garth. I was just asking a question that got answered, I have read the rule book, sir. My deepest apologies for any inconvenience my oversight has caused you.

Thank You again everyone for the reply

[chris s]

Lokkk this up and you are coching high school age kids?? My 9-10's knoe this crap, bummer you...........or as Carl would put it .......LAH me.Bummer for your team

[hawk0213]

Hey now I asked a question on a rule that I was unsure of...I did not ask for your opinion on my team or on how I coach. Now I am not quite sure the relevance of what your 9 and 10 year olds know about the balk rule. But if you want me to critique you as a coach let me know and I will give you a list of other things that a 9 and 10 year old should be learning instead the balk rule.

[nine01c]

Hawk: I am noticing MANY pitchers and their coaches who think that F1 must step off in order to throw to 1B. This is happeneing at many levels. I think it stems from the concept that one must step off in order to FAKE to 1B. As an umpire, it gets kind of frustrating, especially when a coach "storms" out to argue a point (when the umpire knows he is correct).

The umpire's reference to his age (experience) was to make the point that he knows the balk rule, and probably a lot of the other rules as well. Not to say that an old dog cannot be wrong (because they often are), but as a young-ish coach, it would be in your best interest to really know FOR SURE what you are arguing before you take on a rules debate. One suggestion would be to attend your local HS Umpire Association rules clinic.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by hawk0213
I am new to this site, so I apologize if this has already been talked about.

I am a summer league high school baseball coach, using high school rules.

With a runner on first, three times I ahd a runner picked off because the RHP pitcher would pivot on the rubber with his pivot foot when he threw to first. His foot never left the rubber. This happened three times. The first two times I went and talked to ump between innings and finally the last time I stormed onto the field, only to have the umpire say that he has been umping for longer than I have been alive.(i didnt understand the relevance) He said he would not argue because it was not a balk. So I left the field, and my kids got three steps off the base the rest of the game. Is it a balk or a pickoff move I should be teaching the kids?

Jon

This is perfectly legal.

I know why your runners are getting picked off, too.

You have taught them to key off the RHP's right heel, haven't you? That's a good "thumb rule" because, clearly, the pitcher will have to turn that foot around to throw to 1st, unless he's Gumby.

However, it is possible (as you've discovered) for the pitcher to begin his move toward 1st while maintaining his initial pivot position on the rubber. Naturally, he can't maintain this position. It will eventually break contact ... but not until much later in the motion.

If your runners are totally focused on that right foot, they will be late in getting back because the pitcher is initially NOT moving his right foot as his left has already begun the necessary motion for the pickoff attempt.

Let me ask you this: Let's say a RHP, from the set positon, attempts a pickoff at 3rd base without FIRST breaking contact with the rubber? He just steps and throws. Do you have a problem with that? Of course not! Perfectly legal. And, in fact, typical! There is no "special rule" that says the pitcher has to FIRST break contact with the pitching rubber while executing a pickoff.

In fact, if the RHP *was* Gumby and could somehow not move his pivot foot while stepping with his free foot toward 1st, that would be perfectly legal.

For a move to be legal it must comply with the following:

1.) The free foot must move in the direction of the throw. It must gain distance and have direction. The interpretaton on the direction is within a 90-degree cone (two 45-degree lines).

2.) The move must be continuous without hesitation.

3.) Unless picking off at 2nd base, the pitcher's free foot may not go behind the back of the rubber.

4.) The base must be occupied -or- a direct play is being made on an advancing runner.

5.) If the pitcher elects not to step off, any throw to 1st must be completed. i.e. no fakes

That's pretty much it! Everything above applies equally to LHP's.

This pickoff move is sometimes referred to as the "slow move." I'd be wary of teaching it to your pitcher because it is frequently called for a balk simply because it looks different - although legal. It is a rarely used move.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised it wasn't called a balk; although it is perfectly legal.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 30th, 2004 at 01:58 AM]

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by hawk0213
IF you can be on the rubber wehn you throw over then why do they say you have to stepoff to throw over? Every book I have read says that the pivot foot must clear the rubber in order to throw over?

Jon

Does a LHP's pivot foot "clear the rubber" when he makes his throw to first? No!

There is no special rule for RHP's.

You are mixing up coaching points of emphasis with actual rules.

Like I said earlier, it is a "thumb rule" for a runner to key off the RHP's right foot. It must move in order to allow him to make a throw to first. When I say it "must" move, I am speaking in biomechanical terms. Rule-wise, the foot doesn't have to move an inch.

How can you throw to 1st with your right foot pointed toward 3rd? It can't be physically done. Yet, it can be delayed until the last possible moment. The left foot can start its motion first while the right foot trails behind. That isn't the usual way a RHP throws to first ... it's unusual, true ... but it's legal.

Nonetheless, well over half the umpires will *still* call it a balk for the very reasons you mention. And they're wrong, too.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 28th, 2004 at 11:22 PM]

[David Emerling]

I about died when I read hawk0213's description of this RHP's move toward 1st.

On the 13U team I helped coach this past season, I had my righthander do this EXACT move. We rarely do it, but it does sometimes catch runners who are ONLY keying off the RHP's right foot.

The runners disasterously apply the "thumb rule" they've been taught and think it is a RULE.

My pitcher got called for a balk. I talked to the umpire about it and he said that the pitcher had to "step off" before making the throw. I disagreed.

I'm convinced that he only called it a balk because it surprised him. So, a few batters later, with a runner on 1st, I explicitly told my pitcher to repeat the maneuver. He did. The umpire did *not* call it a balk although it was the indentical move.

The reason I did this was to indicate to the umpire that our team was not going to be intimidated by his poor umpiring and that we fully intended to use ALL our pickoff moves in this game. The move was not ruled a balk for the balance of the game. Naturally, I risked him calling it a balk again ... but I suspected he would not. And he did not.

Also, the other coach "helped" the umpire make the balk call by bellowing out "That's a balk!" I didn't want to reduce our repertoire of pickoffs simply because the opposing coach was able to influence a poorly schooled umpire. So, I felt the need to establish that the maneuver was *not* a balk. What better way than to set a precedence? Once legal ... always legal.

Now - Garth, the very individual who has treated you rather tersely for not knowing this rule, derided ME for employing this coaching tactic - saying that I was embarrassing the umpire. He did not leave room for the fact that the umpire embarrassed himself for being completely ignorant of the rule ... the very thing he is accusing YOU of.

Here's the pattern:

If a coach doesn't know a basic rule - the coach is an idiot.

If an umpire doesn't know a basic rule - the coach is *still* an idiot.

See the pattern? [g]

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 28th, 2004 at 11:28 PM]

[Jeremiah]

"My pitcher got called for a balk. I talked to the umpire about it and he said that the pitcher had to "step off" before making the throw. I disagreed.

I'm convinced that he only called it a balk because it surprised him. So, a few batters later, with a runner on 1st, I explicitly told my pitcher to repeat the maneuver. He did. The umpire did *not* call it a balk although it was the indentical move."

I doubt that the only reason he called it a balk was because he was surprised. It was probably a combinatin of poor training (perhaps coaching when he played), and the moved looked awkward (surprising).

I called a balk "because he didn't step off" when I first started umpiring Babe Ruth. I had seen other umpires call this a balk and I don't think my partner had a clue as to whether it was a balk.

Personally, a coach doesn't necessarily have to know the rules all that well to be a "good" coach. Even if the coach thinks the hands are part of the bat, he still could be successful. In this situation, though, it could make a difference if the coach knows how to properly train his pitchers - but this one move is not going to change a winning team from a losing one.

Jeremiah

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Jeremiah
I doubt that the only reason he called it a balk was because he was surprised. It was probably a combinatin of poor training (perhaps coaching when he played), and the moved looked awkward (surprising).

I called a balk "because he didn't step off" when I first started umpiring Babe Ruth. I had seen other umpires call this a balk and I don't think my partner had a clue as to whether it was a balk.

Personally, a coach doesn't necessarily have to know the rules all that well to be a "good" coach. Even if the coach thinks the hands are part of the bat, he still could be successful. In this situation, though, it could make a difference if the coach knows how to properly train his pitchers - but this one move is not going to change a winning team from a losing one.

Jeremiah

I agree and disagree all at the same time.

A good coach should teach his players every aspect of the game. Especially when they're young. That includes the RULES. Can you imagine playing a game if you don't know the rules? Who would even begin a game of monopoly under such conditions?

On the other hand, a successful coach may not know the rules too well. He may be fortunate enough to have a group of talented players that simply win ... despite understanding the intricacies of the game very well. They run faster, hit and throw harder than their opponents - so they win. They are successful despite their weak knowledge of the rules.

You are certainly correct about one thing - seldom will a weak umpire turn a winning team into a losing team.

The balk play we are discussing now is a good example of that. The balk called on my pitcher was really no big deal. I just wanted to make the point that we were not going to be subjected to this kind of random balk calling for the balance of the game. (This happened in the first inning in my game.) I figured if I could get the umpire to *not* repeat the balk call, that I could then continue to use that move at a later point in the game - if we so desired. Also, our pitcher had been taught that that move was *not* a balk. The fact that it *was* called a balk was a bit discouraging since it went against what he was taught.

I have come to a certain revelation this past season as a coach. When confronted with a weak umpire(s), you have to beware when you do anything unusual, advanced, or anything the umpire(s) may not recognize. They are very springloaded to call infractions for things they don't immediately recognize or understand.

Another example in one of our games: Our opponents had runners at 2nd and 3rd. My pitcher elected to pitch off the wind-up. The runner at 2nd was getting VERY bold with his leadoffs. I noticed this. I signaled for a timed pickoff play at 2nd, with my pitcher continuing to pitch from the wind-up position. We have practiced this a few times.

My pitcher toed the rubber in the classic wind-up position. Received the pickoff signal from the catcher. Continued to peer in. The shortstop broke for the bag, the catcher dropped his glove (the signal to spin and throw), our pitcher spun around and nailed the runner. My pitcher never stepped off the rubber while executing this maneuver. (We were playing under OBR, by the way.)

This was called a balk.

A very unexpected and seldom seen pickoff attempt.

The plate umpire first told me, "Your pitcher never came set."

Me: "I know, he was pitching from the wind-up."
PU: "But he didn't step off."
Me: "I know, he doesn't have to."
PU: "Wait a minute." (He was out of quarters so he went out to consult with his partner. His partner had called the runner out on the pickoff.)

He returns.

PU: "My partner said your pitcher made a motion toward home before attempting the pickoff."
Me: "But HE didn't call the balk - YOU did."

He's just making stuff up now. He finally gets this dejected look on his face. He shrugs his shoulders and says,

PU: "Well, if we got it wrong, then we got it wrong."
Me: "Now *that* I can understand."

And nothing more was said from me.

I don't mind when an umpire blows a call and says, "I blew it." But I don't like it when they lie to me and start making up rules in hope that I am completely ignorant of them.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN




[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 29th, 2004 at 04:57 PM]