Problems at the plate meeting...

[David B]

Originally posted by jicecone
SUCK IT UP

You blew the call BIG time. The manager wasn't talking to you.

Being wrong is one thing. Being wrong and arrogant is totally different.

If you can't take a little heat. Get the hell out of the kitchen.

Most importantly. Learn from your mistakes. Tossing the coach will just confirm what he already thinks. Be above that and send him home on YOUR TERMS, not his.

What a great post. Too many times umpires are so easy to let coaches bait them into what the coach wanted all along.

I would never give a coach such pleasure. I'm sure experience has something to do with it, but if a coach is tossed its always going to be on my terms.

Two things:

1)If the coach knew it was you then he was baiting you - and the coach isn't going to win that one.

2) If he didn't then simply agree with him. I've had the same type situation happen with me and my comment was "coach maybe he was an ***, but today we're not worrying about that. The rule books says ..." and we continued. Coach never did catch on that it was I who made the call.

Same thing when a coach wants to be thrown out of the game. It's not his choice, its mine. I've left many a coach in the game simply because I wanted him to have to sit through the same sorry playing that I had to. (Of course it was his team that was stinking up the joint)

But, once the coach shows his true colors, then be on the alert, he's going to push again soon.

Thanks
David

[WindyCityBlue]

I just caught this thread and have several observations:

First, this was a junior level tournament game. I'm pretty sure that they have a behavior clause for their coaches. Now, considering that you may not have a seasoned crew working it, I'm going to cut the crew some slack on how it was handled. Yes, the call was blown, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. Second, umpiring three hundred games in multiple sports during the past year, just means you have too much time, are not choosy or don't have a family. You may be a very good umpire/official, but logic prevails here. He was setting the table with his inference and his behavior was inappropraite at that level.

That said, if I was the BU at that game and the coach referred to the play, I would have played along at first. Maybe he was clueless and didn't recognize me, if that is the case, then I know he is a moron. I would have asked him what the problem with the call was how he wants it called. If the light bulb goes off in his head, he'll be on his toes all game. If not, I would tell him that since I was the umpire yesterday and don't like having coaches call me names PRIOR to the game, I expect that will be the last I hear from him. This will either light his fuse or put him on his best behavior. Either way, you win!

Now to our thread starter; the rule book is fine and dandy, but you would be better served with J/R, Evans or a couple other umpiring manuals. The guy was a jerk, but it was your call that started the fire. Like a hooker, if you take money for the job - you'd better be the best! Good luck...I bet that play won't happen to you again.

[Kaliix]

On second thought, I like your answer better......yeah, what he said!

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I just caught this thread and have several observations:

First, this was a junior level tournament game. I'm pretty sure that they have a behavior clause for their coaches. Now, considering that you may not have a seasoned crew working it, I'm going to cut the crew some slack on how it was handled. Yes, the call was blown, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. Second, umpiring three hundred games in multiple sports during the past year, just means you have too much time, are not choosy or don't have a family. You may be a very good umpire/official, but logic prevails here. He was setting the table with his inference and his behavior was inappropraite at that level.

That said, if I was the BU at that game and the coach referred to the play, I would have played along at first. Maybe he was clueless and didn't recognize me, if that is the case, then I know he is a moron. I would have asked him what the problem with the call was how he wants it called. If the light bulb goes off in his head, he'll be on his toes all game. If not, I would tell him that since I was the umpire yesterday and don't like having coaches call me names PRIOR to the game, I expect that will be the last I hear from him. This will either light his fuse or put him on his best behavior. Either way, you win!

Now to our thread starter; the rule book is fine and dandy, but you would be better served with J/R, Evans or a couple other umpiring manuals. The guy was a jerk, but it was your call that started the fire. Like a hooker, if you take money for the job - you'd better be the best! Good luck...I bet that play won't happen to you again.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I just caught this thread and have several observations:

First, this was a junior level tournament game. I'm pretty sure that they have a behavior clause for their coaches. Now, considering that you may not have a seasoned crew working it, I'm going to cut the crew some slack on how it was handled. Yes, the call was blown, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. Second, umpiring three hundred games in multiple sports during the past year, just means you have too much time, are not choosy or don't have a family. You may be a very good umpire/official, but logic prevails here. He was setting the table with his inference and his behavior was inappropraite at that level.

That said, if I was the BU at that game and the coach referred to the play, I would have played along at first. Maybe he was clueless and didn't recognize me, if that is the case, then I know he is a moron. I would have asked him what the problem with the call was how he wants it called. If the light bulb goes off in his head, he'll be on his toes all game. If not, I would tell him that since I was the umpire yesterday and don't like having coaches call me names PRIOR to the game, I expect that will be the last I hear from him. This will either light his fuse or put him on his best behavior. Either way, you win!

Now to our thread starter; the rule book is fine and dandy, but you would be better served with J/R, Evans or a couple other umpiring manuals. The guy was a jerk, but it was your call that started the fire. Like a hooker, if you take money for the job - you'd better be the best! Good luck...I bet that play won't happen to you again.

Hey Windy, sometimes obeservations are not much different than opinions. I don't believe it was necessary to entertain that coaches, nor yours.

Have a good Day.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by jicecone
Hey Windy, sometimes obeservations are not much different than opinions. I don't believe it was necessary to entertain that coaches, nor yours.

Have a good Day. [/B]

Owwww, time to get a thicker shirt, your skin is a little sensitive.

You said that you worked over 300 games in multiple sports with only a few ejections. You used it as a basis for your vast bank of knowledge concerning this subject. I didn't make it up.

You made an observation AND had an opinion, so did I. Just like you felt it important to Lord your experience over the thread starter, when you have worked at my level, then you can second guess my advice. For someone who told us to suck it up and ignore it, you certainly can't take it.

I won't lose sleep if you don't like the advice. It is what it is; help for a younger umpire. There is no room at that level for a coach to set the tone at a pre-game meeting. Maybe we run our pre-game's differently...

I advised that I would not run him at the meeting, but I would acknowledge him. If this is under the guise of playing along or overtly stating that, "Yes, I made a mistake yesterday, but I didn't call you names." it will get accomplished. Relax a little bit, opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one and some really stink. I thought my advice was helpful. Others apparently understood.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 4th, 2004 at 03:04 PM]

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
All;

It is things like this that separate the good umpires from the also-rans (Ok Tee, good umpires from LL umpires.)...

...One way or another, this error must be acknowledged or your credibility is permanently tarnished. Never apologize for a judgement error but you must always acknowledge a rules error. The Internet umpire boards are full of idiots who cannot acknowledge that they are wrong. Few respect them here. This is a fatal flaw in umpiring. The coaches won't respect you, nor will your fellow umpires.

Peter

[/B]

I must admit that upon hearing the original situation my first thought was dump 'im. But then the articles about "creative ejections" came to mind.

Peter, based upon your posts here, I think that you are stubborn, rude and arrogant. However, my feelings are irrelevant. Your post brings up a very important aspect of umpiring that the rule book "nazis" fail to grasp. This aspect is the politics and philosophy behind our jobs.

One of the things that I tell young officials is spend some time on this board. You won't like everything, but you will learn a lot. (and it deals with real baseball not that LL crap)

Your comments hit the nail on the head and any umpire aspiring to move up the ranks should learn something. Thanks for the insight and I am sorry to see that you are leaving the paid portion of the site.

[Kaliix]

Peter and Windy:

Thanks, I learned something today. That is why I come and read this message board.

[WindyCityBlue]

Kaliix,
Grasshopper, there are no good teachers...only good students.


Tell me, I will forget.
Show me, I may remember.
Involve me and I will understand.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*-- Chinese Proverb

Yeah, it's a play on the "teach a man to fish" adage, but it is a mantra I use when conducting clinics.

Keep learning...we all are!

Windy

[jicecone]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Owwww, time to get a thicker shirt, your skin is a little sensitive.

You said that you worked over 300 games in multiple sports with only a few ejections. You used it as a basis for your vast bank of knowledge concerning this subject. I didn't make it up.

You made an observation AND had an opinion, so did I. Just like you felt it important to Lord your experience over the thread starter, when you have worked at my level, then you can second guess my advice. For someone who told us to suck it up and ignore it, you certainly can't take it.

I won't lose sleep if you don't like the advice. It is what it is; help for a younger umpire. There is no room at that level for a coach to set the tone at a pre-game meeting. Maybe we run our pre-game's differently...

I advised that I would not run him at the meeting, but I would acknowledge him. If this is under the guise of playing along or overtly stating that, "Yes, I made a mistake yesterday, but I didn't call you names." it will get accomplished. Relax a little bit, opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one and some really stink. I thought my advice was helpful. Others apparently understood.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 4th, 2004 at 03:04 PM] [/B]

Windy, this is probably overdone by now however, I had know problems with your advice and respect your baseball knowledge and opinions. However, I thought your judgement of me was out of line, and just as I would take action on the field , I likewise did here.

Thin skined? Not at all. Busy? You bet. Overworked? I'll slow downdown when I die.

Respectfully

[Jeremiah]

"Now to our thread starter; the rule book is fine and dandy, but you would be better served with J/R, Evans or a couple other umpiring manuals."

I have the J/R manual. Is there somewhere that I can purchase the Evans manual? I thought that this manual is no longer available.

Thanks,

Jeremiah

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness

All;

It is things like this that separate the good umpires from the also-rans (Ok Tee, good umpires from LL umpires.)

It is threads like this that help the reader identify the authoritative sources from the wannabes.

The new umpire should study this thread closely and the responses. Clues abound about what kind of umpires are behind these posts.

Look at Windy's response, or David's response, or Jiceone's response. It is clear that these three posters have a clue about the thin ice that they are on in this situation.

Let us look at the politics for a minute:

The umpire blew a rule. Blowing rules end umpire careers. Recently, I told of how an umpire called a dead ball balk in a tournament game and two umpires on the crew had their careers sidelined. Yet, stupid posters here (probably LL) continued to insist that one could have a balk on a dead ball. In our situation, we have an umpire who has blown a rule. The absolute last thing in the world that he should do is call unwanted attention to his mistake. Tossing the coach at the plate conference will certainly call the attention of his assignor to his mistake. Very STUPID move. It is simply irrelevant that the ejection is justified. If you want to be right and derail your career, go ahead. I'd rather be wrong and get promoted.

I don't know if David and Jiceone were thinking of this when they wrote their responses, but it appears that their instincts are valuable umpire instincts. If you do not have them, you need to develop them unless you want to stay in kiddie ball.

No one can call me a wimp or one who tries to sidestep ejections. I wrote a series of articles on "Creative Ejections" where I instructed umpires on how to plan ejections. That is a radically aggressive approach. I average one ejection in every 8-10 games and have for years. But like one poster wrote, I want to eject them on my terms. The absolute last thing that I want to do is eject someone after I blow a rule. That is stupid beyond belief. I might as well retire from umpiring at the end of the game because my career will be permanently derailed.

So, what do you do? From the post, it is simply unclear as to whether the coach knew that the base umpire was the one who blew the call the previous night. However, once again, do not eject him even if you know for sure that he knows it was you. (From experience, my personal belief is that the coach does not know.) There are a number of ways to handle it:

1. After the coach makes his a$$hole remark say: "Yes coach, I blew the rule last night" and laugh it off. His reaction will dictate how you handle it. More than likely, he will apologize profusely and behave the rest of the night. You have acknowledged your mistake and cleared the air.

2. Do nothing, but look for an excuse to eject him later in the game. If he knew who you were and you do not react, it is guaranteed that he will test you again. Get him then. You can afford to be patient.

3. See him after the plate conference and apologize for your error. That way, neither of you is embarrassed in front of the other coach or other umpire. He will almost certainly apologize for his remark.

One way or another, this error must be acknowledged or your credibility is permanently tarnished. Never apologize for a judgement error but you must always acknowledge a rules error. The Internet umpire boards are full of idiots who cannot acknowledge that they are wrong. Few respect them here. This is a fatal flaw in umpiring. The coaches won't respect you, nor will your fellow umpires.

Peter

[Edited by His High Holiness on Aug 4th, 2004 at 02:13 PM]

Excellent writing, Peter. And for free, too.

A personal example you may be able to identify with. Many years ago,(emphasis on "many") I was working a conference games California. I blew a call at first. Skipper headed my way with a grim determined look on his face. He lit into me.

I let him go on for a while and then put my hand up about chest level, not in his face, and said quietly, "I'm sorry Skip. I effed that call. You saw it right, I called it wrong. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it now except guarantee you I will bear down and work my *** off for you the rest of the game."

He just stared for a second. Then he said, "I came out here ready to be run. Thank you." And he walked back to his dugout.

Later in the game I had a real honest to God, who the hell knows banger at first that went against him. He never said a word.

[jumpmaster]

I have always been taught that the measure of a man's character what he does when he thinks no one is watching him. As I grow older I have learned that this has a corallary (sp?) - a man's character is also measured by his ability to publicly say "I messed up and it was all my fault and I am willing to take the consequences".

I seem to come across more and more of these types of men (and women) the longer I officiate. Coincidence? I don't think so.