dead ball balk?

[umpduck11]

Gentlemen,please let me know what you think of the handling of this situation.
Local adult league (38+),R2 steals 3RD,loses helmet,time
is called.Ball is never returned to the pitcher,in order
to attempt a hidden-ball play.
Pitcher steps on rubber,R3 leads off,F5 tags runner.
PU(my partner) calls "Balk".I proceed to go to him,and
discuss the fact that the ball was out into play without
the pitcher being in possession of the ball.Partner nullifies balk call.
Was this the correct action to take by the PU? Nobody
was complaining about the balk,including the offensive
team.Also,was I correct in going to him to let him know
that the ball was previously dead,and could not be put into
play without being on the mound?
Your constructive advice is greatly appreciated.

[Jeremiah]

Since the ball was not in play, I would say that you did the right thing. With the ball in play, this would obviously be a balk. I had this happen in a game once and my partner called a balk. The coaches exclaimed that the ball was not in play. We nullified the balk and I think everyone was satisified.

-Jeremiah

[Atl Blue]

Since the ball was dead, there could be no balk. The hidden ball trick is IMPOSSIBLE following a dead ball as the ball has to be in possession of the pitcher, on the rubber to be put back into play.

You were correct in your call. How you tell the other ump depends on MANY factors (how well do you know them, your working relationship, etc.). In this case, you had a rule problem, it had to be corrected or there could have been a protest. You were right to let your partner know there was an issue. I hope you did so tactfully, which usually means calling time and going to your partner and talking in private. Let your partner make the correction.

[DG]

As already mentioned, there can be no balk until the ball is put in play. If the pitcher toes the rubber without the ball, and the PU points to him and says "play" and then R3 steps off 3b and is tagged, then a balk should be called.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG
As already mentioned, there can be no balk until the ball is put in play. If the pitcher toes the rubber without the ball, and the PU points to him and says "play" and then R3 steps off 3b and is tagged, then a balk should be called.

But putting the ball in play require the pitcher to possess while toeing the rubber, right? So, the ball would still be dead when R3 is tagged. And you already said that ther can be no balk during a deadball.

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]

Originally posted by umpduck11

I proceed to go to him,and
discuss the fact that the ball was out into play without
the pitcher being in possession of the ball.Partner nullifies balk call.

I agree with DG, assuming the PU is competent, he would have put the ball in play when F1 stepped on the rubber. Therefore the ball is live, and the balk should be called.

Let's look at the rules:

OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play as soon as the pitcher takes his position on his plate with the ball is his possession.

Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 30th, 2004 at 12:58 AM]

[LDUB]

Originally posted by GarthB
Let's look at the rules:

OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play takes his position on his plate with the ball is his possession.

Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

Yeah I know, I wasn't thinking. As soon as I posted it I realized I was wrong. I was thinking the ball is live when the PU says "play", but I wasn't thinking about the ball.

[DG]

Originally posted by GarthB

But putting the ball in play require the pitcher to possess while toeing the rubber, right? So, the ball would still be dead when R3 is tagged. And you already said that ther can be no balk during a deadball.

I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play". His intent is clear.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG

I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play". His intent is clear.

Once again, lets look at the rule:

OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play takes his position on his plate with the ball is his possession.



If you don't know whether or not he has the ball, shame on you. But it doesn't change things. If you call "play" and then discover he didn't have the ball, the ball is STILL dead. The pitcher didn't meet the requirement for putting the ball in play. Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

This isn't that hard.

[Tim C]

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A HIDDEN BALL TRICK AFTER A DEAD BALL.

"I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play"."

I guess that pretty much tells us everything we need to know about DG's ability as an umpire.

Tee





[Edited by Tim C on Jul 30th, 2004 at 09:47 AM]

[DG]

Originally posted by GarthB

Once again, lets look at the rule:

OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play takes his position on his plate with the ball is his possession.



If you don't know whether or not he has the ball, shame on you. But it doesn't change things. If you call "play" and then discover he didn't have the ball, the ball is STILL dead. The pitcher didn't meet the requirement for putting the ball in play. Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

This isn't that hard.

I understood your point the first time. I try to remember it next time I call a balk after a dead ball. And I don't think I would be ashamed that I did not know he had the ball. That is the point of the "trick".

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A HIDDEN BALL TRICK AFTER A DEAD BALL.

"I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play"."

I guess that pretty much tells us everything we need to know about DG's ability as an umpire.

Tee





[Edited by Tim C on Jul 30th, 2004 at 09:47 AM]

I don't think it tells you anything about me. It just gives you another opportunity to make wise cracks.

[Tim C]

The "trick" is to fool the offense not a competent umpire.

Tee

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG


I understood your point the first time. I try to remember it next time I call a balk after a dead ball. And I don't think I would be ashamed that I did not know he had the ball. That is the point of the "trick".

No. The point of the trick is to fool an inattentive player, not an inattentive umpire. Umpires always know the status of the ball.

[DG]

Originally posted by GarthB

No. The point of the trick is to fool an inattentive player, not an inattentive umpire. Umpires always know the status of the ball.

If the pitcher and 3b man have a meeting with intent to pull the hidden ball trick, I have no way of knowing who has the ball when they separate. So if the pitcher toes the rubber, I don't think it is bad umpiring to call "play". Inattention has nothing to do with it. Now, as you have pointed out, if I call a balk when it is discovered that he does not have the ball, and therefore the ball could not be live, this call would be correctable, IMO.