Balk??

[cbfoulds]

OK, my partner @ the plate called this one in a Babe Ruth District game:

R2, outs irrelevent, RH pitcher in the Set.
Pitcher moves "differently" from his customary delivery, in that (on this occasion only) his knee comes sharply over the rubber toward 2d base; R2 dives back to bag, and F1 delivers to the plate w/o hitch or hesitation.

I've got nothing, my partner balks him for "changing his motion to intentionally decieve" R2. There is discussion w/ the coach, I try to pull my partner aside for consultation, but he isn't having any. The call stands, the coaches more or less sold by the "changed / intent to decieve" terminology. However, as I am better known to these coaches, I get some approaches later in the game, which I beg off by pleading that A) I was (must have been, didn't see the balk) doing my "sneak-a-peek" at the runner @ that moment, and B) plate ump in "better position to see" effect of this "move" on the runner.

1.) I can't find this "balk" anywhere in the book(s); am I missing something? I've always been told it is damn near impossible to balk to 2nd; and as long as the basic mechanics are legal [continuous motion after clear stop, no quick pitch, etc.], I'm having a hard time grasping how one can balk on a delivery to the plate, simply because a runner got it into his head that a pick-off attempt was coming instead [even if F1 somewhow intended to convey that impression].

2.) Presuming I am right & there was no balk, anything I could have done to "get this right"? FWIW, I am senior to this guy, but not enough so that he HAS to respect what I tell him. I was not willing to chew him out post-game without the rule book in my hand.

Thanks

[WindyCityBlue]

A balk to second base, you say...hmm???

I think we covered this one a couple weeks ago.

[Rich]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
OK, my partner @ the plate called this one in a Babe Ruth District game:

R2, outs irrelevent, RH pitcher in the Set.
Pitcher moves "differently" from his customary delivery, in that (on this occasion only) his knee comes sharply over the rubber toward 2d base; R2 dives back to bag, and F1 delivers to the plate w/o hitch or hesitation.

I've got nothing, my partner balks him for "changing his motion to intentionally decieve" R2. There is discussion w/ the coach, I try to pull my partner aside for consultation, but he isn't having any. The call stands, the coaches more or less sold by the "changed / intent to decieve" terminology. However, as I am better known to these coaches, I get some approaches later in the game, which I beg off by pleading that A) I was (must have been, didn't see the balk) doing my "sneak-a-peek" at the runner @ that moment, and B) plate ump in "better position to see" effect of this "move" on the runner.

1.) I can't find this "balk" anywhere in the book(s); am I missing something? I've always been told it is damn near impossible to balk to 2nd; and as long as the basic mechanics are legal [continuous motion after clear stop, no quick pitch, etc.], I'm having a hard time grasping how one can balk on a delivery to the plate, simply because a runner got it into his head that a pick-off attempt was coming instead [even if F1 somewhow intended to convey that impression].

2.) Presuming I am right & there was no balk, anything I could have done to "get this right"? FWIW, I am senior to this guy, but not enough so that he HAS to respect what I tell him. I was not willing to chew him out post-game without the rule book in my hand.

Thanks

A pitcher can deliver differently every time. The only question is -- Is it a legal delivery? I don't see how it wouldn't be.

--Rich

[cbfoulds]

Peter
While I'm not a newbie, that is exactly where my rule book is, which is why I didn't have it to cite chapter & verse post-game.
So, anything I could have done or suggestions for what, if anything to say to partner (on the scene of the crime) in these situations?
Or a good way to deal with the "was that really a balk" questions w/o ratting out my partner or lying?

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 20th, 2004 at 02:50 PM]

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
Peter
While I'm not a newbie, that is exactly where my rule book is, which is why I didn't have it to cite chapter & verse post-game.
So, anything I could have done or suggestions for what, if anything to say to partner (on the scene of the crime) in these situations?
Or a good way to deal with the "was that really a balk" questions w/o ratting out my partner or lying?

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 20th, 2004 at 02:50 PM]

It depends on the politics of your association. In my own association, I am very senior and I don't care what the junior umpires think of me. I have been known to step in and correct a little dog's mishaps when he is too bull headed to come to me.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was doing the bases in a FED game between two intense rivals. Bottom of 7th, tie score, bases loaded, with 2 outs. The pitcher delivered ball 4 and R3 came home from third, touched the plate, and everyone celebrated the victory around home plate. After about 10-15 seconds, my partner call the BR out for not going to first. He was still celebrating the victory at home. The home team coach came running out of the dugout breathing fire towards my partner. I yelled at the coach to come to me. I said quietly. "Coach, I'll take care of this if you just get that dumb-a$$ batter down to first and go back to your dugout."

I called my partner out to the C position and I asked him "What the hell are you doing?"

He said that he called the BR out for abandoning the bases. I said "You are not f$$$ing up this game with a call like that. A BR cannot be called out for abandoning the bases until after he gets in the dugout."

Then I said "And exactly where is the batter now?" The batter waved at us from over at first base and we quickly got the hell out of there before the visiting coach could lose his cool.

I had the same bozo for a partner two months later in a Legion game. He insisted that I do the plate because it was my turn. I said "No, you are doing the plate because you screwed up the last game and so you get to do it until you get it right." He grumbled loudly and put on his plate gear.

It about the fifth inning we had the following situation:

R3, R1, 1 out. R1 is moving on the pitch and a fly is hit to center for the fly out. R3 scores after the tag and R1 is doubled up going back to first. R3 clearly scored well before the ball reached first base.

As we are starting the next inning, I noticed that the score board did not reflect the run scored from the previous half inning. Before my partner can call "Play", I jogged in and asked him about the run that just scored. He said. "The run did not score becasue it was a force play at first." I said. "You just screwed up again so you owe me another plate. You can instruct the scorekeeper to put up another run or I'll show you up and do it for you."

Another run was put on the board and he went home after the game and called the assignor and demanded that I never work with him again. When the assingor did not honor his request, he quit. Good riddance.

On the other hand, if I am working with a bigger dog than me, he can screw up all he wants and if he doesn't come to me, it isn't going to be fixed.

The politics of my association hold the senior man accountable for all screw ups. When I am going to be held accountable, I take the necessary actions to get things right. If it violates umpire traditions, tough s$$$.

Recently, I wrote here about a situation where a junior umpire screwed up a catcher's interference call. I wandered into the mound as if to say. "Come ask me for Help!" He took the hint and asked me for help. If he had not, I would have intervened. It all has to do with the expectations of your assignor and the pre game conference. Get these things settled in pregame so you don't have any surprises.

Peter

[Rich]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

It depends on the politics of your association. In my own association, I am very senior and I don't care what the junior umpires think of me. I have been known to step in and correct a little dog's mishaps when he is too bull headed to come to me.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was doing the bases in a FED game between two intense rivals. Bottom of 7th, tie score, bases loaded, with 2 outs. The pitcher delivered ball 4 and R3 came home from third, touched the plate, and everyone celebrated the victory around home plate. After about 10-15 seconds, my partner call the BR out for not going to first. He was still celebrating the victory at home. The home team coach came running out of the dugout breathing fire towards my partner. I yelled at the coach to come to me. I said quietly. "Coach, I'll take care of this if you just get that dumb-a$$ batter down to first and go back to your dugout."

I called my partner out to the C position and I asked him "What the hell are you doing?"

He said that he called the BR out for abandoning the bases. I said "You are not f$$$ing up this game with a call like that. A BR cannot be called out for abandoning the bases until after he gets in the dugout."

Then I said "And exactly where is the batter now?" The batter waved at us from over at first base and we quickly got the hell out of there before the visiting coach could lose his cool.

I had the same bozo for a partner two months later in a Legion game. He insisted that I do the plate because it was my turn. I said "No, you are doing the plate because you screwed up the last game and so you get to do it until you get it right." He grumbled loudly and put on his plate gear.

It about the fifth inning we had the following situation:

R3, R1, 1 out. R1 is moving on the pitch and a fly is hit to center for the fly out. R3 scores after the tag and R1 is doubled up going back to first. R3 clearly scored well before the ball reached first base.

As we are starting the next inning, I noticed that the score board did not reflect the run scored from the previous half inning. Before my partner can call "Play", I jogged in and asked him about the run that just scored. He said. "The run did not score becasue it was a force play at first." I said. "You just screwed up again so you owe me another plate. You can instruct the scorekeeper to put up another run or I'll show you up and do it for you."

Another run was put on the board and he went home after the game and called the assignor and demanded that I never work with him again. When the assingor did not honor his request, he quit. Good riddance.

On the other hand, if I am working with a bigger dog than me, he can screw up all he wants and if he doesn't come to me, it isn't going to be fixed.

The politics of my association hold the senior man accountable for all screw ups. When I am going to be held accountable, I take the necessary actions to get things right. If it violates umpire traditions, tough s$$$.

Recently, I wrote here about a situation where a junior umpire screwed up a catcher's interference call. I wandered into the mound as if to say. "Come ask me for Help!" He took the hint and asked me for help. If he had not, I would have intervened. It all has to do with the expectations of your assignor and the pre game conference. Get these things settled in pregame so you don't have any surprises.

Peter

Sounds like a really enjoyable place to umpire. And you sound like a really great partner to work with.

--Rich

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Sounds like a really enjoyable place to umpire. And you sound like a really great partner to work with.

--Rich

Rich;

I would love to work a game with you. You sound too competent to have any major screw ups so you would love working with me.

Peter

[Rich]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Rich;

I would love to work a game with you. You sound too competent to have any major screw ups so you would love working with me.

Peter

From that perspective, sure, we would have no problems. But I just couldn't imagine moving into a new area and having a "big dog" walk on me on a field. And I've seen a lot of "big dogs" do this to "little dogs" when it was the "little dog" that knew his stuff and the big dog was just there for a long time.

Of course, the examples you gave were good ones in that anyone with basic knowledge knows that it isn't a force play just because you can tag the base rather than the runner.

Let me backtrack a bit. I'm not sure I would enjoy working in your group -- as someone who has lived in seven different states and always found a place in the better games after a short while, I don't think I'd have any problems fitting in anywhere. But it sounds like you'd rather crucify someone on a field rather than ever giving the impression that you were part of a crew that contained an umpire that screwed up.....and that's what I don't like. Or maybe that you talk about it so easily....I'm really not sure.

--Rich

[Gee]

Peter,

Shouldn't blame the newbies for screwing up, schidt happens. Maybe you should try beefing up your Umpire Training program. G.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
.....and that's what I don't like. Or maybe that you talk about it so easily....I'm really not sure.

--Rich

Rich;

The competition among umpires is fierce. I doubt that I would have become a serious umpire if I had known in advance of the Machiavellian politics necessary to get to the top. I still have trouble believing that I spent the time to do what I did, just to umpire good baseball. In any other part of the country, I could have accomplished what I did with half the effort. DC has an extremely competitive mindset.

For Gee; The umpire that I metioned had four or five years experience. He had no excuse for not knowing the rules.

Peter

[DG]

Sounds like the whole association could use some interpersonal skill training.

[David B]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
[B
For Gee; The umpire that I metioned had four or five years experience. He had no excuse for not knowing the rules.

Peter
[/B]

We still consider 4-5 years experience a novice (umpire in training) They might get a few varsity games, but probably not.

But as you state, there is no reason to not know the rules even with one years experience.

Thanks
David

[GarthB]

Originally posted by David B

We still consider 4-5 years experience a novice (umpire in training) They might get a few varsity games, but probably not.

But as you state, there is no reason to not know the rules even with one years experience.

Thanks
David

[/B]

Slow learners.

I know of umpires with less time in than that who are working D-1 and minor league ball. An umpire who still works like a novice after 5 years should come up with another hobby.

Or do you hold them back? Do the "good ol' boys" have a strangle hold on the good assignments?

[Tim C]

In my association if an umpire isn't getting to varsity level in three years we send him back through the complete training cycle again or suggest he move on to other "hobbies."

Tee

[jicecone]

And then there are the 15 - 20 yr officials that still DON'T know the rules or only check on them every 3-4 years.

Listen, knowing the rules and knowing when and how to apply them is USUALLY, a long time process. Something I don't believe many 4-5 year officials fully comprehend. A good deal of the time just calling balls and strikes, safes and outs, will get you through most games. Having a good day, let alone having a good game , are sometimes conflicts all to itself. Really having an understanding of why your out there takes time. And for heavens sake, we ALL know that just because a certain official is officiating a certain level, does NOT make him a good official.

Peter:

You really do come across as a know-it all arrogant a##, but if that is truly you , well then that is you. However this may be intimidating to some of the younger officials you work with and before they even start , they are probably already nervous about making an error. Helping them to improve to your level is a feather in you cap, driving them away is bad business for the association because you can't do ALL the games yourself. Or can you?

If every official got dumpped each time they made an error, we wouldn't even have MLB officials around. And they make tapes of all their errors.It is not always the student that can't learn, but most of the time it is the instructor that can't teach.