illegal pitch?

Dan S. · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 18, 2004, 11:13pm

with no runners on, i had a pitcher start his delivery, and not finish it. im sure we've all seen this before, that in the middle of his delivery maybe the pitcher trips, or the ball falls out of his hands, or someone yells/distracts him. for me though, this was the first time as am umpire. in any case, i called a ball because of an illegal pitch based on these OBR rule quotes:
"The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration"...."From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber"... "If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be called a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise"

thankfully enough it was a harmless count of 0-0 which i made 1-0, but i got a little heat for it, not too bad, stuck to my guns and moved the game on. is that the right call?? thanks

Atl Blue · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 18, 2004, 11:15pm

With no one on base, this is nothing.

With runners on base, it's a balk.

It is never a "ball".

jicecone · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 19, 2004, 06:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan S.
with no runners on, i had a pitcher start his delivery, and not finish it. im sure we've all seen this before, that in the middle of his delivery maybe the pitcher trips, or the ball falls out of his hands, or someone yells/distracts him. for me though, this was the first time as am umpire. in any case, i called a ball because of an illegal pitch based on these OBR rule quotes:
"The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration"...."From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber"... "If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be called a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise"

thankfully enough it was a harmless count of 0-0 which i made 1-0, but i got a little heat for it, not too bad, stuck to my guns and moved the game on. is that the right call?? thanks

Read the italized note under 8.01d This will explain why it is nothing. Think of the pitch with no runners on as not having left the pitchers hand and not having crossed the foul line.

teacherspit · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 20, 2004, 12:56am

Gentlemen correct me if I am wrong.
If the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball and starts his motion and the ball slips out of his hand, is this not considered a pitch? And if so, and the pitch was not stuck at or crossed the plate in the strike zone, would it not have to be a ball whether or not anyone is on the bases?
Thanks

LDUB · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 20, 2004, 01:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by teacherspit
Gentlemen correct me if I am wrong.
If the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball and starts his motion and the ball slips out of his hand, is this not considered a pitch? And if so, and the pitch was not stuck at or crossed the plate in the strike zone, would it not have to be a ball whether or not anyone is on the bases?
Thanks

8.01

d) A ball which slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base

teacherspit · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 20, 2004, 01:44am

Thank YOu

Dan S. · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:14pm

this might be a bit nit picky, but because of this specific line in the rules "From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration", i would assume that the pitcher HAS to pitch the ball. If he doesn't, then what is the penalty? there has to be some sort of penalty because a rule was violated.

as to the rule "8.01

d) A ball which slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base"

i would say that at least in that case the pitcher did attempt to pitch, meaning he did commit and tried to finish, or at least the ball actually left his hands. so the rule addresses that...but it doesnt address, what if a pitcher goes through his delivery and fakes a pitch, meaning never lets go for whatever reason...could you imagine??! i think the umpire would look like the bigger fool if nothing is called here, or at least a warning. you cant keep calling something like that 'no pitch' if it happens a few times.

i am not posing this as an argument, but i would like to see anyone else's opinion on this because i've talked to six umpires already and two have said i made the right call even though i really didnt 'need' to call anyhitng, and of course the other four felt no pitch.

Atl Blue · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:29pm

Dan:

Well, to the two that told you you made the right call, quit going to them for advice. They were wrong.

This happens in MLB occassionally. A pitcher, with no one on, will start his delivery, then suddenly stop, because something isn't right. Guess what gets called? NOTHING!

Look in 8.01 (which you said he violated) and find a penalty for violations of stopping his delivery. I'll save you the time: there isn't one!

And 8.05 starts with, If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when.... If there are no runners, there is no balk.

I cannot remember which book it was (Ball Four? No, I don't think so...) where two MLB pitchers were debating this very point one night. So the next day, in a meaningless situation with no one on base, one of them started his windup and then just fell down, just to see what the ump would do or call. The ump called TIME and asked if he was OK. That was it, no other call. The pitcher was actually kind of disappointed.

If a pitcher makes a habit of it, you could warn and eject based on him delaying the game, but that is a bit extreme. The first time, ignore it. If you want, call time, make the batter step out and start the whole ritual over again. It's not necessary to call time, but if it makes you feel you have done SOMETHING when the pitcher does this, then call time.

But don't call a ball.

bluehair · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:41pm

I think it as simple as this. If it is a actual pitch that was illegal with no one on, it is a ball. If F1 didn't deliver the pitch, it wasn't a pitch.

If he was delivering a spitball to home or a cut (that he cut) baseball, or pitched to the batter without doing all of the things that you have to do to make that pitch legal, it is a ball with no one on. Otherwise it is nothing.

This isn't fully encompassing, but I think this explains why it is not a ball if F1 fails to deliver a pitch with no one on.

LDUB · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan S.
this might be a bit nit picky, but because of this specific line in the rules "From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration", i would assume that the pitcher HAS to pitch the ball. If he doesn't, then what is the penalty? there has to be some sort of penalty because a rule was violated.

There are many rules with no penalty. This is one of them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan S.
as to the rule "8.01

d) A ball which slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base"

i would say that at least in that case the pitcher did attempt to pitch, meaning he did commit and tried to finish, or at least the ball actually left his hands. so the rule addresses that...but it doesnt address, what if a pitcher goes through his delivery and fakes a pitch, meaning never lets go for whatever reason...could you imagine??! i think the umpire would look like the bigger fool if nothing is called here, or at least a warning. you cant keep calling something like that 'no pitch' if it happens a few times.

I assume that there is no one on base when this happens. But why whould the pitcher want to fake a pitch? If this ever did come up, I would warn the pitcher right away.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan S.
i am not posing this as an argument, but i would like to see anyone else's opinion on this because i've talked to six umpires already and two have said i made the right call even though i really didnt 'need' to call anyhitng, and of course the other four felt no pitch.

You were wrong, and so were those other two guys who you talked to. I don't understand how you don't need to do anything. If you were going to call the pitch a ball, would you not have to call "ball"? And if you were going to call it no pitch, would you not say "no pitch"? Either way you have to make a call.

Tim C · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:44pm

I just wanted to intone that under National Fed Rules (Fedlandia) that this is a balk.

When Brad Rumble was in charge of the book he rules in the 1996 Spring News Letter that this was a balk.

(Same newsletter also noted that if a pitcher pitches out of the set postion "even with no one on base" it is a balk if he does not make a clear and noticable stop when pitching.)

I just wanted to note this as a "side bar" in that many umpires work so many rules books (true, two rule books with endless "adaptations") that maybe the umpire was confused as to the "governorship" of his rules.

Tee

LDUB · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Atl Blue
If a pitcher makes a habit of it, you could warn and eject based on him delaying the game, but that is a bit extreme. The first time, ignore it. If you want, call time, make the batter step out and start the whole ritual over again. It's not necessary to call time, but if it makes you feel you have done SOMETHING when the pitcher does this, then call time.

I don't think it is that extreme to warn the pitcher. There is a difference between slipping and falling, and faking a pitch. If this guy if faking a pitch with no one on, there is something wrong with him, and you have to do something to stop him.

LDUB · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 21, 2004, 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
I just wanted to intone that under National Fed Rules (Fedlandia) that this is a balk.

When Brad Rumble was in charge of the book he rules in the 1996 Spring News Letter that this was a balk.

(Same newsletter also noted that if a pitcher pitches out of the set postion "even with no one on base" it is a balk if he does not make a clear and noticable stop when pitching.)

I just wanted to note this as a "side bar" in that many umpires work so many rules books (true, two rule books withendless "adapatations") that maybe the umpire was confused as to the "governorship" of his rules.

Tee

How does F1 balk with no one on base?