Let's see.
BR passes by 1st on a base hit to F6.
No mention of BR attempting to advance to 2nd.
R1 returns to 1st in a force situation. He then goes past 1st into foul ground and then returns to 1st base.

I've got BR legally acquiring 1st base with no attempt to advance. Therefore he did not pass previous runner. BR safe.
R1 has no legal right to 1st base and is tagged in a force situation prior to reaching his next base. R1 out.

Luciano's law:
Always penalize the person/team that caused the problem.

Dead on...
 

I love his book.

My point was a little more contemporary. Always penalize the cheaters and the stupid.

Re: Dead on...
 

how can we apply this rule to the politicians?

Re: Re: Dead on...
 

Vote for someone else..

If you're voting for them, they're politicians.

---No, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". Someone f*d up and that guy is at fault. If you can't determine which player is out, you shouldn't be taking the check. It does not matter who gets tagged first. Only the improper runner is out, unless the other guy steps off the base.---

Windy:

Back to the other issue. I agree, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". And you are correct, someone f*d up. But it DOES matter who gets tagged first. You say, "only the improper runner is out", to which I say, "not necessarily true and in any case, in the above scenario, which one is improper"?

You say don't take the check if you don't know. OK, I'll buy that. But you never answered the question, so how are you taking the check?

And Luciano's books were funny. Unfortunately, the biggest joke was that he was ever an umpire to begin with. One of the wrost rated officials in the history of professional sports.

How does it matter who is tagged first? R1 and BR both standing on first. F3 tags R1 then the BR, R1 is out. F3 tags BR then R1, R1 is out again. So how does it matter who is tagged first?

It does matter if you are stepping on the base to get a force out. R1, ground ball to F3, and R1 runs back and stands on first. R1 does not legally occupy the base. So he can be tagged out. Then if F3 steps on first, the BR is out too. But if F3 steps on first base first, then the BR is put out, and R1 leaglly occupies first base. Then he can not be put out while touching the base.

In Stone
 

woolnojg and a couple of others already did. I didn't want to waste bandwidth by repeating what was obvious.

If two runners are standing on the same base, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH IS TAGGED FIRST, everyone here is telling you that. The runner that caused the problem - the guy returning to a bag he is not entitled to, is out. the batter safely secured first, even if he rounded it, the other yutz is not allowed to come back! A lot of inexperienced coaches want their player to tag the fastest guy...a lot of inexperienced umpires buy that argument.

In the two guys standing on first argument, I agree, it does not make any difference. I am refering to the situation I posted earlier to prove that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference!

to repeat:

Bases loaded, no one out. Fly ball to LF, but R3 takes off on contact. F7 drops the ball, but R3 does not realize this and comes back to 3B. R2 knows he was forced, so he has run to 3B. R1, with his head down and not paying attention to his coaches or his teammates, rounds 2B and comes into 3B. No runner has passed another, but all three are standing on 3B. The ball comes to a very confused F5. F5, being a good baseball player, starts tagging runners. Who is out?

Is it absurd? Of course it is! But it is a good "test" question that proves that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference.


OK, you want to earn the check. Who is out?

Ok so R2 is the one who legally occupies the base. If he is tagged first he is safe. If R1 is tagged first, the force is removed, which makes R3 the one who is legally is on the base. Then R2 can be tagged out. If R3 is tagged first, he is out, and R2 still occupies the bae, then R1 can be tagged and put out.

Thank you. You just proved the point that the "order of the tag crap" is important in determining WHO is out.

Order of tag:

R3, R2, R1 - R3 and R1 out
R3, R1, R2 - R3 and R1 out
R2, R3, R1 - R3 and R1 out
R2, R1, R3 - R3 and R1 out
R1, R3, R2 - R2 and R1 out
R1, R2, R3 - R2 and R1 out

Okay, believe that if you want.

The runner on thrid will always be out for returning to the base he is no longer entitled to occupy. He must advance and has no right to cause another runner to be put out.As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced? What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?

The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.

Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is. I prefer to let the rules do the talking.

As soon as R2 is safe at 3rd, the force is removed.

[Edited by tornado on Jul 12th, 2004 at 10:11 AM]

That's my point. The guys that f-d up are the runner who didn't vacate third and the runner from first that is trying to occupy a base that is already legally and safely occupied. If our brother from Atl calls R2 (who has advanced to third) out for any reason other than he stepped off the base and was tagged, he is incorrect. The other two are dead. No matter what order!

This is simply not true. Luciano was rated the best umpire in baseball one season by the players association and was considered to be among the best ball-strike umpires in the game.

Saying he was not highly rated only means that baseball management didn't like him -- mainly because he didn't kiss Earl Weaver's a$$ and also because he wasn't willing to fade into the background. Naturally, that annoyed some of the other umpires as well.