OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.

Questions:

1) Was BR out automatically when R1 returned to 1B and overran it, thus placing BR ahead of R1. (OBR 7.08 (h))

2) Should F3 have been forced to tag the BR because R1 in entitled to the base. (OBR 7.03)

3) Was the call correct, because force over-rules OBR 7.03 (OBR 7.01)

1. This may be stretching 7.08h a little. Usually this applies when a following runner passes a proceeding runner, as stated.

2. R1 was NOT entitled to the base because of 7.01. The runner was forced to vacate the base. F3 could have also just thrown to 2nd for the force.

3. The call was correct, but 7.01 discusses the runner aquiring the right to a base and when they lose that right.
7.03 further discusses who is entilted to a base without a FORCE CONDITION. Sit: R2 on 2nd. 1 out. B1 hits single and advances to first and trys for second. He arrives safely however for some unknown reason R2 starts for third and decides to head back to second. Both runners are now on the base. If neither are tagged they are both still safe. If the runner from first is tagged then he is out, because the preceding runner is entitled to the base as per 7.01.

I don't believe that 7.01 overrules 7.03 as much as clarifying another scenario, and what runners are entitled to a base during that scenario.

I teach my kids to tag both runners in the event that two people end up on base. That way they don't need to think about who has the right to the base.

---------------------------------------------------------

That will work with two outs but with less than two outs you should teach them to tag them in the proper order. It does get complicated. G.

Safe or out?
 

Only one player is ever entitled to the base.

I've had coaches try to argue the "order of tag" crap before. Determine which guy has gained the saftey of the bag and when the other yutz is tagged, it doesn't matter in which order, he's out. A runner that has safely gained the right to a base, cannot be forced off by another player that has made a mistake. I was once told to penalize the stupid and the cheaters; that is who I'm looking for.

----I've had coaches try to argue the "order of tag" crap before. Determine which guy has gained the saftey of the bag and when the other yutz is tagged, it doesn't matter in which order, he's out.----

Please tell me you don't believe this! The "order of tag" crap means a lot.

Bases loaded, no one out. Fly ball to LF, but R3 takes off on contact. F7 drops the ball, but R3 does not realize this and comes back to 3B. R2 knows he was forced, so he has run to 3B. R1, with his head down and not paying attention to his coaches or his teammates, rounds 2B and comes into 3B. No runner has passed another, but all three are standing on 3B. The ball comes to a very confused F5. F5, being a good baseball player, starts tagging runners. Who is out?

Is it absurd? Of course it is! But it is a good "test" question that proves that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference.

IMO, BR is out for passing R1, when R1 overruns 1B and goes into batters box. He is essentially between 1B and home, and BR is beyond 1B.

Not the batter's box, the coach's box. ;o)

But what of the protection afforded the BR in reaching 1B? And why should the BR be out when it's clearly R1's stupidity that has continued to leave him naked and unprotected in a force situation? You can't blame the BR for this one, you've got to call the dork who's not paying attention out and make sure he sits down and gets ridiculed by his teammates. You can't punish the BR: he has no choice but to get to 1B, and that he did. It doesn't sound like he turned for 2B from the description.

-Craig

Because the rules say the trailing runner is out, no matter which runner made the stupid error.

Why are you assuming that the runner moved "past" BR? The coaches box is not necessarily closer to home than 1st - this is likely not a passed runner situation. And if he did round first and head toward home, he's out for that. I can't see an out on BR in any circumstance here.

sorry...
 

No, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". Someone f*d up and that guy is at fault. If you can't determine which player is out, you shouldn't be taking the check. It does not matter who gets tagged first. Only the improper runner is out, unless the other guy steps off the base.

The base is my point of reference. The BR is one the 2B side of it, R1 is on the HP side of it once he crosses it and ends in the coaches box. Therefore, BR passed R1.

R1 retreats and touches 1B, then proceeds into the coach's box while BR is returning to 1B, presumably along the foul line? Sounds like passing to me. I'd consider BR on 1B and R1 not yet to 1B. Or R1 closer to 2B in the basepath than BR.

The runner who errs is irrelevant to the out. Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 0 out, Daniels hits ball over fence. Abel runs in reverse, causing Baker, Charles, and Daniels to "pass" him. Baker, Charles, and Daniels are out.

wrong
 

Abel is out and ejected for making a travesty of the game.

Let's see.
BR passes by 1st on a base hit to F6.
No mention of BR attempting to advance to 2nd.
R1 returns to 1st in a force situation. He then goes past 1st into foul ground and then returns to 1st base.

I've got BR legally acquiring 1st base with no attempt to advance. Therefore he did not pass previous runner. BR safe.
R1 has no legal right to 1st base and is tagged in a force situation prior to reaching his next base. R1 out.

Luciano's law:
Always penalize the person/team that caused the problem.

Dead on...
 

I love his book.

My point was a little more contemporary. Always penalize the cheaters and the stupid.

Re: Dead on...
 

how can we apply this rule to the politicians?

Re: Re: Dead on...
 

Vote for someone else..

If you're voting for them, they're politicians.

---No, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". Someone f*d up and that guy is at fault. If you can't determine which player is out, you shouldn't be taking the check. It does not matter who gets tagged first. Only the improper runner is out, unless the other guy steps off the base.---

Windy:

Back to the other issue. I agree, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". And you are correct, someone f*d up. But it DOES matter who gets tagged first. You say, "only the improper runner is out", to which I say, "not necessarily true and in any case, in the above scenario, which one is improper"?

You say don't take the check if you don't know. OK, I'll buy that. But you never answered the question, so how are you taking the check?

And Luciano's books were funny. Unfortunately, the biggest joke was that he was ever an umpire to begin with. One of the wrost rated officials in the history of professional sports.

How does it matter who is tagged first? R1 and BR both standing on first. F3 tags R1 then the BR, R1 is out. F3 tags BR then R1, R1 is out again. So how does it matter who is tagged first?

It does matter if you are stepping on the base to get a force out. R1, ground ball to F3, and R1 runs back and stands on first. R1 does not legally occupy the base. So he can be tagged out. Then if F3 steps on first, the BR is out too. But if F3 steps on first base first, then the BR is put out, and R1 leaglly occupies first base. Then he can not be put out while touching the base.

In Stone
 

woolnojg and a couple of others already did. I didn't want to waste bandwidth by repeating what was obvious.

If two runners are standing on the same base, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH IS TAGGED FIRST, everyone here is telling you that. The runner that caused the problem - the guy returning to a bag he is not entitled to, is out. the batter safely secured first, even if he rounded it, the other yutz is not allowed to come back! A lot of inexperienced coaches want their player to tag the fastest guy...a lot of inexperienced umpires buy that argument.

In the two guys standing on first argument, I agree, it does not make any difference. I am refering to the situation I posted earlier to prove that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference!

to repeat:

Bases loaded, no one out. Fly ball to LF, but R3 takes off on contact. F7 drops the ball, but R3 does not realize this and comes back to 3B. R2 knows he was forced, so he has run to 3B. R1, with his head down and not paying attention to his coaches or his teammates, rounds 2B and comes into 3B. No runner has passed another, but all three are standing on 3B. The ball comes to a very confused F5. F5, being a good baseball player, starts tagging runners. Who is out?

Is it absurd? Of course it is! But it is a good "test" question that proves that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference.


OK, you want to earn the check. Who is out?

Ok so R2 is the one who legally occupies the base. If he is tagged first he is safe. If R1 is tagged first, the force is removed, which makes R3 the one who is legally is on the base. Then R2 can be tagged out. If R3 is tagged first, he is out, and R2 still occupies the bae, then R1 can be tagged and put out.

Thank you. You just proved the point that the "order of the tag crap" is important in determining WHO is out.

Order of tag:

R3, R2, R1 - R3 and R1 out
R3, R1, R2 - R3 and R1 out
R2, R3, R1 - R3 and R1 out
R2, R1, R3 - R3 and R1 out
R1, R3, R2 - R2 and R1 out
R1, R2, R3 - R2 and R1 out

Okay, believe that if you want.

The runner on thrid will always be out for returning to the base he is no longer entitled to occupy. He must advance and has no right to cause another runner to be put out.As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced? What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?

The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.

Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is. I prefer to let the rules do the talking.

As soon as R2 is safe at 3rd, the force is removed.

[Edited by tornado on Jul 12th, 2004 at 10:11 AM]

That's my point. The guys that f-d up are the runner who didn't vacate third and the runner from first that is trying to occupy a base that is already legally and safely occupied. If our brother from Atl calls R2 (who has advanced to third) out for any reason other than he stepped off the base and was tagged, he is incorrect. The other two are dead. No matter what order!

This is simply not true. Luciano was rated the best umpire in baseball one season by the players association and was considered to be among the best ball-strike umpires in the game.

Saying he was not highly rated only means that baseball management didn't like him -- mainly because he didn't kiss Earl Weaver's a$$ and also because he wasn't willing to fade into the background. Naturally, that annoyed some of the other umpires as well.

windy says:
<I>The runner on thrid will always be out for returning to the base he is no longer entitled to occupy.</I>

OK, I'll buy that, as it's written. The problem with that reasoning though, is that some other things are about to happen that will mean that he IS entitled to return to the base. Hang on, we'll get there.

<I> He must advance and has no right to cause another runner to be put out.</I>

As long as he is forced, this is correct. Problem is (again), things can happen that remove the force. If so, he no longer HAS to advance.

<I>As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced? </I>

I'm not calling R2 out on a force. DEPENDING ON THE ORDER OF THE TAG however, I might be calling R2 out for being on a bag to which he is not entitled and being tagged.

<I>What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?</I>

I never called R2 out on a FORCE.

<I>The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.</I>

I agree completely. No matter what happens here, R1 is going to be out.

<I>Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is.</I>

That's exactly what I would do, depending on the ORDER they were tagged. Now, I'll be the first to admit, it is going to have to be a very good and very quick thinking umpire to get this right, but I was willing to put you in that category before now.

<I> I prefer to let the rules do the talking.</I>

What rules? The only rule you have quoted is, "Whoever f**d up is out." That's an interesting concept. And sometimes it's true. Unfortunately, it's not ALWAYS true, and that's why it's not printed in ANY rule book that I have.


from tornado:

<I>As soon as R2 is safe at 3rd, the force is removed.</I>

Well, it's removed for R2, but it's not removed for R3. But I NEVER called R2 out on a force.

back to windy:

<I>That's my point. The guys that f-d up are the runner who didn't vacate third</I>

Originally, that's true. But things change. I'll get there, I promise.

<I>and the runner from first that is trying to occupy a base that is already legally and safely occupied.</I>

I agree completely regarding R1. He is dead meat. But he plays an important part in our little play here. Stick with me.

<I>If our brother from Atl calls R2 (who has advanced to third) out for any reason other than he stepped off the base and was tagged, he is incorrect.</I>

Sorry, that's just not true.

<I>The other two are dead. No matter what order!</I>

Again, simply not true.

OK, I promised to get you to the right answer here. Let's go back to the beginning. It seems to be the only way to get this through.

A runner that is forced from a base has no right to the previous base. I think we are all OK with that one.
Once a force is removed, a runner that might have previously been forced must be tagged to be out. Still OK, aren't we?

IF there is no force, and two runners are on the same base, the leading runner is entitled to the base, the trail runner has no rights to the base, and the trail runner is out if tagged, even if he is on the base.

A few cases to prove these points. R1, no outs, hot shot grounder to F3, R1 freezes on 1B. F3 comes over and ignores R1, and tags the base. Once F3 tagged 1B, the BR is out, and therefore the force is removed on R1. Had R1 been tagged before the base was tagged (while still forced), R1 would have been out, then F3 could have tagged the base for a DP. This is the first case of the "order of the tag crap" meaning something.

OK, let's move to the case of the reverse double play (yes, there is such a thing. See Rule 10 if a definition is needed). R1, ground ball to F3, but R1 was going this time. F3 steps on 1B (BR now out), and fires to F6 covering 2B. Is R1 forced, or must he be tagged? Well, of course he must be tagged, as the force was removed when F3 stepped on 1B. In fact, if R1 wants to reverse course and return to 1B, he is now free to do so.

Another concept: R2, no outs. Ground ball to F4, R2 off on contact. F4, instead of taking the easy play at 1B, decides to play on the lead runner, and throws to F5. R2 sees the throw and gets into an extended rundown between 2B and 3B. The BR, being a good runner, sees the rundown and trots into 2B. The defense chases R2 back to 2B, so now we have R2 and BR both standing on 2B. Both are tagged (in whatever order you want, in this case, the order makes no difference!). It is the BR that is out. R2 is the lead runner, he is not forced to leave 2B, it's his base.

OK, now for the graduate level stuff, we are going to combine these two concepts. Back to our original play, with all three runners standing on 3B. If the defense tags R2 first, nothing has happened, as R2 reached his "forced to" base, and 3B is his (at the moment). If R3 is tagged first, R3 is out; he was forced home on the play, and standing on 3B gives him no refuge.

But, (and it is a BIG but), if R1 is tagged first, he is out immediately; he has no reason to be on 3B, and has no safety there. But since R1 is out immediately, the force that was on before is now removed. A trail runner has been called out, so anyone in front of him is no longer forced to go anywhere. R3 does not have to run. Since he does not have to advance, he is the lead runner, and 3B belongs to him. Now, if both R2 and R3 are tagged (in whatever order you want, we're back to the order not meaning anything), R2 is out. He is the trail runner, on a base to which the lead runner is not forced to leave.

Well, guess what? R2 did everything he was supposed to do. It was his teammates that f*d up, but R2 is out!

So the "order of the tag crap" can matter. I will be the first to admit (and have shown), it doesn't ALWAYS matter, but there are times that it does. To make a blanket statement that it never does is simply wrong, as is the statement that R2 can never be out in this scenario.

If this does not convince you, I have failed as a teacher.


As for Luciano, that one is opinion, not rule, so I can't offer the same support as above. I do know that his evaluations were the lowest (or near lowest) in the league, primarily because he decided he was the show, that people were coming to see him umpire. While he obviously had some talent to get to the show, he let it get to his head, and he lost all credibility. The same players that may have voted him a great ump at one point, later hated his clown act, and voted him one of the worst umpires in the league. I couldn't care less about Earl Weaver, and I think he went overboard WAY too often, but Luciano's animosity and clownish behavior had no business on the baseball field.

Longest post I ever seen. Glad I didn't read all of it. However, I will agree that order of tag matters, and if there are 3 runners in contact with 3B, 2 of them don't belong and if the defense tags all 3 I will get at least 2 outs, regardless of what order they tagged them in. And then, does it really matter who is left? Will there be an argument?

As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced?

I'm not calling R2 out on a force. DEPENDING ON THE ORDER OF THE TAG however, I might be calling R2 out for being on a bag to which he is not entitled and being tagged.

Why is he not entitled? He was FORCED to advance on the basehit!

What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?

I never called R2 out on a FORCE.

I know, that is the only correct thing you've said.
So how is he out when he gets tagged? He is entitled to that base.

The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.

I agree completely. No matter what happens here, R1 is going to be out.

Yes, no matter what order they are tagged, this guy is out. Now who else f*d up? Oh, the guy on third - and yep, he's out, too.

Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is.

That's exactly what I would do, depending on the ORDER they were tagged. Now, I'll be the first to admit, it is going to have to be a very good and very quick thinking umpire to get this right, but I was willing to put you in that category before now.

So, if the runner from second gets tagged first, while engaging the bag, he is out because you say he is not entitled to touch that bag? C'mon. Where else is he supposed to go? He can't stay at his bag, because R1 is advancing and B1 will be on first.

I prefer to let the rules do the talking.

What rules? The only rule you have quoted is, "Whoever f**d up is out." That's an interesting concept. And sometimes it's true. Unfortunately, it's not ALWAYS true, and that's why it's not printed in ANY rule book that I have.

Good Lord, I pity the program you work. The rule book does not cover every intricacy of the game. It says little things like "Only one player is entitled to occupy a base at any one time." I've never seen an order of tag rule, either. By the way, what is the penalty for a pitcher taking his signs off of the rubber? That's no listed either. But it does say that on a base hit, with bases loaded, all runners must advance at least one base. They cannot stay where they are and cause a traffic jam. That's what happened here and the two outs will be the same, no matter who gets tagged. If you don't believe me, forward this email to MLB or Gerry Davis and have him laugh at you.

Since I started all the "order of the tag crap" by stating that I teach my kids to tag both runners, I'll re-iterate. For the perspective of outcome of the game, it doesn't matter. If you have two runners on 2B and tag them both, one is out, one is safe, no matter which order you tag them in, how many outs, or what phase the moon is in. Gee said it could matter with less than two outs, but I can't figure out how.

From the perspective of an umpire wanting to send the right guy back to the bench, it does matter.

Atl Blue, you have a lengthy argument full of examples, but your logic is wrong. Your basic premise is that R2, who has legally obtained 3B could be tagged out if the force is removed. You provided no examples to back that up. Not one of your examples has a runner being tagged out while standing on a base to which they were forced.

If R1 had not yet made it to 3B and was tagged by F6 in the basepath, followed by F5 tagging both runners on 3B, would R2 be out? The force was removed when R1 was tagged out, so under your logic, R2 is in jeopardy.

If a runner legally obtains a base, he can't be put out while touching it (except by interference). A runner does not lose the right to a base by another runner being put out. He may gain the right to the base when someone is put out (if a force is removed), but he doesn't ever lose it.

[Edited by akalsey on Jul 15th, 2004 at 10:37 PM]

I tried logic...it doesn't seem to work.

In the original sitch,have the ball thrown to second for the force out,effectively ending any discussion of
who is out,and who is safe.........

So, where you umpire, you can tell the player, "Wait, throw the ball to second.", when his coach is yelling for him to tag all three guys?

Cool, how do we get games there?

Windy, I think it's possible that the order may matter in some circumstance I can't wrap my brain around. Here's one that comes to mind, in the scenario you guys are discussing - 3 runners on third base.

If R3 is tagged first, he's out. I think we all agree there.

But if that happens, R2 is no longer forced to third base. So at that moment, R3 is out, and R2 is the offending baserunner - thus a tag on both runners would, by rule, cause you to call R2 out, not R1 ... even though R1 was really the screwup on this play.

If this is wrong, quote me a rule that shows me how I'm wrong.

ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!
 

What??? The runner on third is the biggest screw up and caused all of this because he didn't advance!

You have a base hit with all bases occupied. How is it that all runners have to move up one base? The runner on third is out for not advancing, whether he is tagged, first, next or last. The runner from first has overrun his established base, is not entitled to be there and he is out, no matter when he is tagged. The only player that can be tagged and WILL ALWAYS BE SAFE IS R2, now R3.

I think I understand the point they are making. Bases loaded, none out. Ball hit to F3. Runners go, but F3 steps on first before throwing home. BR is out, force is removed, F2 is waiting to apply a tag to R3. R3 notices this and scrambles back to 3B. R2 didn't see the tag at first so doesn't know the force is off and comes into third. R1 is a pitcher and doesn't know how to run the bases, so he comes charging around and only stops when he collides with the pile-up on third.

Who has the right to the base? There was no force, so R1 and R2 are in the wrong spot.

But this doesn't change the basic argument. No matter what order I tag the three runners in, the same two are out. In this case R3 is safe with R1, R2 out.

akalsey:

In your scenario, you are correct, the order makes no difference because F3 has already stepped on first. This removed the force, so if R3 returns to 3B, it is his, and R2 and R1 are out if tagged.

You seem to understand the removed force concept. Windy, are you STILL not seeing it?

Windy keeps saying "R3 f*d up, he has to be out". He has yet to quote a rule that says R3 is out IF the force has been removed.

And that is the whole point to my extreme example. IF the force is removed because a trail runner is out for whatever reason, R3 IS NOT FORCED. Windy keeps saying R3 has to run and returned improperly, so he has to be out. Once a trail runner is out, R3 does NOT have to run, and is free to return to 3B, and because he is the lead runner, it belongs to him. So at that point, ANY other runner that was standing there has no right ot the base, including one who might have ORIGINALLY been forced there, but whose status changed when a trail runner was out, thereby removing the force.

Windy says he feels sorry for any league where I work (which must include the SEC and the ACC among others). This from someone whose only "rule" used on this play is "R3 f*d up, he has to be out". Windy, read the play: the status of R3 CHANGED. Once a trail runner (R1) is out, R3 is NOT forced, is free to return to HIS base, and anyone else standing there, including R2, is vulnerable.

I admit, this is never going to happen. It was an example that was used to show the ridiculousness of the statement about the "out of order crap" not meaning anything. It was merely a teaching tool, mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, Windy fell off the balance beam.

[Edited by Atl Blue on Jul 17th, 2004 at 07:16 AM]

Of course, I stil disagree with you. :)

The difference between your original scenario and what I described is that there was a force involved in my sitch.

You describe R1 rounding second and coming to third. The moment he touched second baes, he legally acquired it. If he decides to advance to third, preceding runners are not forced to advance. R2 doesn't have to give up his place on third. R3 was already forced to move earlier in the play, so he's in the wrong spot. So R1 and R3 are out if all three are tagged on the base.

In order for R2 to be out, R1 would have to be tagged prior to reaching second, thus removing the force. Once he passes second, the force is off.

alkasey:

You are right, once R1 passes 2B, the force is off him. Once R2 touches 3B, the force is off of him. Neither of them can be called out on a force. In my scenario, the ONLY person that could be called out on a force is R3, and that is ONLY if he is tagged PRIOR to R1 being tagged.

If all 3 runners end up on 3B, R1 cannot be called out on a force. However, because he is the trail runner, he is not entitled to 3B, so if tagged he is out, not on a force, but because he is not legally occupying a base. It's the same if he were tagged somewhere between 2B and 3B.

But once R1 is tagged out in my scenario, now NO ONE is forced, including R3. Because a trail runner is out, the force is removed. Since R3 is no longer forced, and since he is the lead runner, 3B belongs to him. He cannot be tagged out while standing on 3B.

Well, if 3B now belongs to R3, what is R2 doing there? He is a trail runner that is NOT forced to run that is in contact with a base with a lead runner. R2 has no protection, and if tagged now, he is out. This despite, as Windy likes to put it, R3 f*d up.

There a couple of concepts here:
1) once a trail runner is out (by any means), the force is removed on all lead runners
2) if more than one runner is in contact with the base, the base belongs to the lead runner unless he IS (not WAS) forced to leave it

Unfortunately, Windy's only concept is whoever f*d up is out. If that were the rule, in this case it would be Windy!

Again...

Bases loaded, R3 doesn't move on the hit. R1 R2 both advance a base. There are now two runners on third and one on second. If R1 stepped off second and were tagged, would R2 be in jeopardy at third? No.

Bases loaded ball hit to the outfield. The batter decides not to stop at first but heads to second, do the other runners have to advance a base? No.

R1, R2. R2 makes it to third, but R1 was tagged out after rounding second, could R2 legally go back to second? No.

So why do all of the above common-sense concepts suddenly go out the window just because you have three people occupying a base at third?

You may disagree with Windy's statement that the person who screws up is out, but in baseball, that's most often the case. The only time when it's not is when doing that would give an advantage to the offense. (Runner passing another, batter interference at home, etc.).

Somebody else help out here. Am I nuts?

The main problem here is that the original situation keeps changing. The only thing that remains the same is 3 runners on 3b. We have had a base hit to LF, a BR thrown out at 1B, and I don't know how many other situations. Let's all get over this by agreeing that if the defense tags all three runners 2 of them are out, and the umpire will determine which one will remain based on the situation, not 2 or 3 different situations posed here, but the one that actually exists. I hppe we can agree that order of tag does matter, depending on the situation, and that 2 runners will be out.

DG:

You are correct, on the situation I posted, (three runners on 3B), two are out (I think we all agree on that). You are correct, the order of the tags DOES matter to determine WHICH two are out. THAT is the concept to which Windy refuses to agree.

alkalsey:

<I>Bases loaded, R3 doesn't move on the hit. R1 R2 both advance a base. There are now two runners on third and one on second. If R1 stepped off second and were tagged, would R2 be in jeopardy at third? No.</I>

Yes, he would! A trail runner was out, that removes the force on everyone. THAT is the point of this exercise.

<I>Bases loaded ball hit to the outfield. The batter decides not to stop at first but heads to second, do the other runners have to advance a base? No.</I>

They have to advance at least one. If not, where do they go? They do not have to advance past their "forced to" base, but they have to advance at least one base. That is what a force is all about.

<I>R1, R2. R2 makes it to third, but R1 was tagged out after rounding second, could R2 legally go back to second? No.</I>

YES! He absolutely can! The force has been removed, he can return to 2B!

<I>So why do all of the above common-sense concepts suddenly go out the window just because you have three people occupying a base at third?</I>

The above concepts went out the window LONG before we had three guys standing on third. Then went out when the concept of a force was misunderstood.

<I>You may disagree with Windy's statement that the person who screws up is out, but in baseball, that's most often the case.</i>

In MOST cases, it IS right, I agree with that. My point to this entire exercise is that it is not ALWAYS right, and he is an exception.

<I>The only time when it's not is when doing that would give an advantage to the offense. (Runner passing another, batter interference at home, etc.).</I>

Those are times, yes, but those are not the ONLY times.

<I>Somebody else help out here. Am I nuts?</i>

Well, I not going to answer that one, but I will say you have misunderstood the FORCE rule.

Read 7.08e. Read 2.00, Force. A force is removed against a runner when he reaches his advance base when forced. However, that does NOT remove the force that existed against any other runners.

EXAMPLE: Bases loaded, line drive toward F7, may or may not be caught. R1 thinks no, and takes off, R2 goes half way, R3 holds at 3B. Ball is not caught. R1 reaches 2B. The force is now removed on R1, but it remains for R2 and R3. They are still forced to their next bases.

Now, same situation, except F7 comes up throwing to 2B. R1 has rounded 2B, and a quick thinking F6 tags R1. He is out. R2 and R3 are NO LONGER forced. They must be tagged to be out.

Now, you want to get into the really interesting stuff? A force can be removed and reinstated against the same runner on the same play!

EXAMPLE: R1, fly ball to F9, R1 off on the pitch, ball is dropped by F9. R1 slides into 2B, removing the force. But he does not realize F9 has dropped the ball, so he returns to 1B thinking he has to tag up. Even though he reached 2B, removing the force, by retreating to 1B, he has REINSTATED the force on himself. If the defense throws the ball to 2B, he's out.

Yes, please read 7.08e. In fact, here are the salient points to this arguement.

The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out.

And...

For instance, before two are out, and runners on first and second, or first, second and third, the ball is hit to an infielder who tries for the double play. The runner on first beats the throw to second base but overslides the base. The relay is made to first base and the batter runner is out. The first baseman, seeing the runner at second base off the bag, makes the return throw to second and the runner is tagged off the base. Meanwhile runners have crossed the plate. The question is: Is this a force play? Was the force removed when the batter runner was out at first base? Do the runs that crossed the plate during this play and before the third out was made when the runner was tagged at second, count? Answer: The runs score. It is not a force play. It is a tag play.

Once R1 rounded second and headed to third, the force is off and the actions of R1 are irrelevant when it comes to where R2 should be. R1 would have to retreat back past second toward first and reinstate the force in order for his out to matter.

akalsey:

You are absolutely correct in that once a runner reaches an advance base when forced, the force is off ON HIM. It is not off on any other runners who have not yet reached their advance bases.

EXAMPLE: Bases loaded. BR hits a shot to deep F6. For some reason, R3 hesitated on the play. R1 was off on the pitch, and beats the throw to 2B. The force is now off of R1 (as long as he does not retreat). But R2 and R3 ARE still forced. Where else are they going to go? The BR went to first, R1 went to 2B. R2 and R3 are FORCED (by the action of the batter becoming a runner) to advance. If they (R2 or R3) or their advance base are tagged before they arrive, no matter where R1 is now, they are out.

Somehow, you seem to be thinking, or at least stating, that once ANY runner reaches his advance base, the force is off on ALL runners. That just isn't true.

If that is NOT what you are stating, then I don't see where you are still confused on the now famous 3 runners on 3B play. R1 is NOT forced once he reaches 2B. Great, no problem, no disagreement. However, he has no protection at 3B as he is the trail runner (if two runners are on a base, the base belongs to the lead runner unless he was forced to vacate it). OK, if tagged, he is out, no matter what, he has NO safety no matter who gets tagged first. <I>Rule 7.03
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base. </i>

But if the defense tags him first, OK, R1 is out, not by force, but because of the above stated rule (7.03). Now, because R1 is out, there is no force on R3. Under rule 7.03, R3 is entitled to 3B because there is no longer a force. Now, if both are tagged (in either order), R2 is out (see rule 7.03, as R3 is not forced to vacate 3B).

C'mon guys, these are BASIC rules presented in a little bit of a confusing example. I can somewhat see an ump with little experience MAYBE missing it in the heat of the action, but with all day to study it, it doesn't get much more basic than 7.03 and 7.08e.

Of course, I still can't find a rule number for "whoever f*d up is out".

[Edited by Atl Blue on Jul 18th, 2004 at 09:55 PM]

You say that once R1 legally occupies second base he can not be forced to advance. But later you say that if R2 acquires third base, he can be "forced" to retreat if the force out is removed because R1 was put out. So R2 legally acquires third base. Then because R1 is out, the is no longer legally on the base?

If this situation ever comes up, just call R1 and R3 out. Who cares about what the order of the tags were? Everyone konws that only 1 runner can be on a base, therefore no one will complain when you call R1 and R3 out. Besides, I assume the third base coach will already have his hands full yelling at the runners, he will have no time to question your call.

<I>You say that once R1 legally occupies second base he can not be forced to advance.</i>

Correct.

<I>But later you say that if R2 acquires third base, he can be "forced" to retreat if the force out is removed because R1 was put out.</i>

I don't like the term "forced" to retreat, because "forced" has a specific definition in baseball. But the actions of his teammate R3 legally returning to 3B will now "require" him to leave the base, yes.

<I>So R2 legally acquires third base. Then because R1 is out, the is no longer legally on the base?</i>

If you mean R2 in place of "the", then yes, that is exactly right.

<I>If this situation ever comes up, just call R1 and R3 out.</i>

I see you are part of the "order of the tags crap doesn't make a difference" camp, led by Windy. By the rules (7.03 and 7.08e), you would be incorrect.

<I>Who cares about what the order of the tags were?</i>

As I said earlier, this is a bizarre case play that would never happen. It was written to show how to deduce certain solutions from the rules. It was typical of a question you might see on a test. If this is your answer, you failed.

<I>Everyone konws that only 1 runner can be on a base, therefore no one will complain when you call R1 and R3 out.</i>

Actually, if I were the coach, I might, depending on the speed and ability of the specific runners, and if you got it wrong. And if you don't pay attention to the order of the tags, you MIGHT get it wrong.

<I>Besides, I assume the third base coach will already have his hands full yelling at the runners,</i>

You are totally correct about that!

<I>he will have no time to question your call.</i>

Funny, they always find time to do that. And many coaches will think this whole mess is somehow the ump's fault, too!

I don't believe there is any way that once a runner legally aquires a base, he can, by any actions of his teammates, be made to vacate it for any reason.

In your original play the BR legally aquires 1st, R1 legally aquires 2nd (although he is standing on 3rd) and R2 legally aquires 3rd. The only base that R3 can legally aquire is home. Since all runners legally aquired the base they were forced to (and the BR is on first) the force is removed on all runners except R3 who is still forced from 3rd.

Since 7.08(e) states that "However, if a following runner is put out on a FORCE PLAY, the force is removed and the runner must be put out.", R1 was not forced out on 3rd, he was tagged out, which by the rule, DOES NOT remove the force. And since R2 has still legally aquired 3rd, the force on R3 still exists and he has no right to 3rd both because R2 has legally aquired it and because the force still exists on him.

Therefore, the order of the tag does not matter. R2 legally aquired a base that he was forced to. R1 only legally aquired 2nd and since he was tagged out (not forced out as stated in 7.008(e)), R3 is still forced to vacate 3rd and the only base he can legally aquire is home, so he is out upon being tagged at 3rd.

This is going to be one of those threads that just won't die. Let's agree that if we are in Atlanta, we will call it one way and almost everywhere else, we will call it the other? Stop the MADNESS!!!

You may be right, this thread may not die. But I have been reading it all along and have just now had a chance to respond to what I think the flaw is in Atl Blue's logic. I for one, would like to hear his response and attempts to rationalize the logic I used in aswering his hypothetical question.

And hey, no one is making you read the thread, right? ;)

7.08(e) Rule
 

Kaliix,
Rule 7.08(e) states that if a following runner is "put out" on a force play; not "forced out" on a force play, so a following running being put out removes the force on the preceding runners.