I was watching ESPN this week where they show their top 10 Bloopers so to speak. One of them involved a Minor lague baseball game (I apologize as I can't remember the teams) and it involved what else the play at first. Was the foot on the bag or not?

In this particular case U1 ruled SAFE. The defensive manager came out and questioned the call. U1 got together with the PU and the call was changed to out (The correct call BTW). The Offensive manager went ballistic and did his Lou Pinella type antics which is the main reason this particular clip aired on ESPN to begin with.

So with all this talk we hear about not going to your partner, sticking with the call, etc. it seems that both Minor League and Major League umpires disagree. We have already seen Mr. Maclelland over-turn Garcia.

So here's my point, since MLB and affiliates are starting or have started depending on how you look at it to change calls that one would think couldn't, are we bound to do the same? after all many if not most think the game should be called the way they see it on TV.

Pete Booth

Peter,

When in Rome, do as the Romans do however, I will never be in Rome(MLB,) so I can care less what color shirt they are wearing that day or what performance they put on for the SHOW. We are BOUND as officials to get the calls "as right" as possible, no matter the contest.

I know we can go on forever discussing the exactness of this statement, Eg.(change a ball to a strike because it was missed by the PU), but that is to the point of absurdity, I agree and is not necessary.

Believe me, if I called the game like on TV with quarter size stike zones, I would still be working my first game of the season.

I disagree, just because it is on TV does NOT mean "MOST" think it should be called that way. Some do. To them I say "wake up and smell the coffee". MLB and TV land is a all together different situation.

As officials we are BOUND to the following:

1. Learning the rules and their application.
2. Learning and applying mechanics that enable us to more easily assess conformity of the rules.
3. Working hard to be "as right and fair as possible", in executing our duties as officials.
4. Not trying to act like they do on TV.

I have no problem with going to my partner for a pulled foot or my partner coming to me - before the call is made! After that, don't come to me to bail you out!

We can do a lot before the decision is rendered. but the problem is that once the decision is announced, we're stuck with it. I'm sorry, all this BS about getting the call right is okay as long as it's done before the call is made. If we continue to change calls afterward to "get it right" then what the hell are we there for? The coaches can stand in the boxes, see the plays, discuss it with each other and save a bundle of cash!

It looked bad.
 

Whatever the call was, it looked really, really bad after he made a call.

No wonder the coach went ballistic.

I guess being a Minor League Umpire is not all it is cracked up to be.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_7_13.gif' alt='Baseball' border=0></a>

Peace

I say get the call right... the plate umpire has a better angle... what are you going to do? Refer to your other umpire on EVERY play because there might be something you didn't see? Of course not, you make the call you see... and you don't want the PU running down telling you your wrong, but if a coach can convince you that there was something you didn't see whats the big problem with appealing?

Okay my friend, the coach just convinced you that the last pitch you called a strike was in fact a ball. Are you going to go to your BU to discuss it and change the call?

The coach just convinced you that the tag at 2nd that you were 10' away from was never placed on the runner. He was 100' away. Are you going to go to your PU to "consult"?

Well that's what you are condoning here! Get into the correct position to see and make the call. If you are not in good position (and you know when you are not), ask for help before you make the damn call!

Mclelland again.
 

The same thing happened yesterday, Sunday. In the Braves game the Braves were batting, ground ball and play at first, base ump called the runner out. Cox came out and asked the base ump to get help. Base ump went to Mclelland, the plate ump and crew chief, for a conference and then reversed the call.
What's this world coming to. I guess when MLB say that there going to get the call right, they meant it.

Our local mechanic, which works VERY well, is for BU, when suspecting a pulled foot, to look over to PU. At PU, if I see a pulled foot, I'll lift my foot when he glances over. Then he makes the call, and in tempo, pointing at the foot. Looks good, and gets the call right, all in one.

Re: Mclelland again.
 

If this is the way we are destined to go I want instant replay so I can reverse every call out there!

I really don't have a problem with Mclelland's decision on the reversal but I have a big problem with the first base ump GOING to him AFTER the call. Mclelland probably does to. Hope it wasn't Garcia at first. G.

I can see missing that call in a two man game from C or even B but not in a four man game from A, what was he doing. G.

[Edited by Gee on Jun 28th, 2004 at 12:11 PM]

They could. Then again they could just get a crew that does'nt have a ego problem and are willing to make the correct call. And as I already stated this does NOT mean to the point of absurdity.

I don't understand your point of contention here. Is it the fact that you may be perceived differently if you change your call or our you just stubborn?

How many other calls are you going to change? Are we going to change a ball to a strike? Are we going to change balk to not a balk? These are judgment calls. You need to make them and live with them. If we messed up, we messed up. It will not be the last time that happens. They should have followed a better procedure. If that is the procedure, I do not think it is a very good one. Because coaches will expect us to change other calls that should never be changed.

Getting the call right should not be the main focus when we have already made a judgment call.

Peace

Oh Ye OF Little Faith

"Okay my friend, the coach just convinced you that the last pitch you called a strike was in fact a ball. Are you going to go to your BU to discuss it and change the call?"

You don't get help on a ball and strike call... if your going to make an argument, make a reasonable one at least...

"The coach just convinced you that the tag at 2nd that you were 10' away from was never placed on the runner. He was 100' away. Are you going to go to your PU to "consult"?"

Depends what I saw... 10' doesn't always mean you saw it better than 100'... any play can all of a sudden spin around and your 10' view is no longer good enough to see anything...

"Well that's what you are condoning here! Get into the correct position to see and make the call. If you are not in good position (and you know when you are not), ask for help before you make the damn call! "

I'm no condoning either of these... I'm not saying if you "think" you missed something to go the other umpire... because if you "THINK" you may not have seen enough then you should never make the call, you should appeal before the call. I'm talking about a situation where you hear a reasonable argument as to something you may have NOT SEEN AT ALL...

And lastly let me leave you a quote from the rulebook...

"The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don't hesitate to consult your associate."

If a coach can produce a doubt in my mind, I see no problem getting help, and neither does the rulebook.

Let me remind you all, that a judgement call means in my judgement! I have no problem in cunsulting on rules should a problem arise. Nor do I have a problem with going to my partner before the call to assist in my judgement. Once I have made the call, I have rendered my judgement (which is what I get paid for). Yes I am there to get the calls right but that is for the rules (OBS, INTF, BOO and things like that). Judgement is what we live (and die) by. Help to make that judgement is one thing but when we start reversing judgement calls left and right, we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines.

"we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines."

Can we do that? Sounds good to me, do I still get paid?

This is funny cause you all get really bent out of shape over this... but your blowing it way out of proportion. NO ONE in any post so far has argued that "every call should be discussed" or you must "get every call right."

I'm not an apocalyptic, doomsday umpire that is trying to destroy baseball.

Put simply my argument is: no one should read the first post and say "NO!!! THE END IS COMMING!" I'm simply saying that there are rare situations where it is OK to ask for help! Not on every call, not every other call... I'm simply saying there are times when its ok. This has happened on TV twice and you all act like we should all start changing ALL out calls.

I'm gonna shut up now

You can put words in the mouths of those that disagree with you, like so many here. But the reality is that the world is not going to end one way or another if we get a call wrong either. Getting it right is not the most important thing in my opinion. If my partner makes a call, who am I to change it? Who am I to tell my partner, that is suppose to make that call, I had a better look at it? There is a reason we do not change balls and strike calls. There should be a similar reason we do not change judgment calls either. If my partner needs help to make a decision, I will give help when he asks me. But I am not coming to someone to make a call I clearly have decided.

Now where you could cause some chaos, is when every call gets questioned because you are changing calls. How far are we going to take this? Because do not think a coach will not try to get you to change more calls when you go down that road. This is the very reason this coach was dumped in the game. We get paid to make judgment calls. Sometimes they are going to be wrong. And if he is watching his partner, what is he missing?

Peace

Relax and remember that they aren't there to see you
 

Let me remind you all, that a judgement call means in my judgement! Yes I am there to get the calls right but that is for the rules (OBS, INTF, BOO and things like that).

So you only get paid for interpreting the rules, not your judgement. Cool gig!

Help to make that judgement is one thing but when we start reversing judgement calls left and right, we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines.

Talk about a need for de-caf...
Take a step back and realize that we are not questioning YOUR judgement here. The premise for this discussion is to recognize the need to get the call right. I can be out of position, blocked or just didn't get a good look at the play - it happens. I can and do ask for help and would rather look bad than penalize the player. We get paid to make the game fair, if your ego won't allow you to change your call when your partner clearly saw the ball hit the ground or the foot come off the bag, then you should stop taking the money . Most players begin their season long before we get out gear out of storage. They deserve to get it right.

Re: Relax and remember that they aren't there to see you
 

<i> Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

The premise for this discussion is to recognize the need to get the call right. I can be out of position, blocked or just didn't get a good look at the play - it happens. I can and do ask for help and would rather look bad than penalize the player. We get paid to make the game fair, if your ego won't allow you to change your call when your partner clearly saw the ball hit the ground or the foot come off the bag, then you should stop taking the money . </i>

Windy first off who said baseball is Fair. We are there not to make the game Fair but are there to make certain one side does not gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

One of these days here is what is going to happen concerning this pulled foot business.

2 outs r3. Ground ball to anyone doesn't matter who tosses to F3 to get the BR. F3 catches ball sees R3 dart for home but Blue says OUT. Since the 3rd out was made by the BR before he/she reached first base safely NO runs score. However, wait a minute

Now the offensive manager comes out and says to Blue "Hey F3's foot was off the bag" Now you confer with the PU and the PU agrees F3's foot was indeed off the bag - Now what

If you overturn the call, R3 scores - game Over, but if U1 would have ruled safe to begin with F3 would have fired to F2 to try and get R3, therefore, how is this overturn of the pulled foot fair?

In summary, I would say that if the play INVOLVES a continuous type action EVENT, then right or wrong the umpire has to LIVE with the call because there are simply too many variables to overcome when trying to reverse. If the play ONLY involves the one runner then I say Ok do your best to get it right.

Keep in mind that no matter what we do mistakes will be made - it's called the Human element.

Pete Booth

The slippery slope here isn't in the asking for help or even the overturning of calls.

In my mind, the problem is when the base umpires think that there's no reason to hustle across from C -- hell, if there's something weird on the play we'll just ask the plate umpire!

Nonsense.

I worked a HS game last season with a guy who likes to work in "C-minus." because he doesn't look over his shoulder to read R2 stealing third and he's almost in the right spot to make the call there. Grounder to F6, throw across, he doesn't even move. Then he points to me when there's a swipe tag. Only problem is I'm looking at R3 touch the plate when the play happens at first. THAT'S my job.

Hustle, proper read of the ball, and proper mechanics gets you to the right spot to see the feet and the tag, if one happens. I have no problem telling a coach to pound sand when I work hard to get in position and make the call I'm paid to make.

--Rich

You gave horrible advice!
 

Two columns for the price of one...

JRutledge
Senior Member

Are we going to change balk to not a balk?

Yes, if you or your partner indavertantly called a balk, you correct it. Got it???


Getting the call right should not be the main focus when we have already made a judgment call. You need to make them and live with them. If we messed up, we messed up. It will not be the last time that happens.

Getting the call right should be your ONLY focus, judgement or rule interp. And yes, I agree that if you mess up displaying your judgement, you should live with the ramifications. Your belief that you make a call and that's it, is horrible advice.

Peter Booth -

Your example was good - but I'll give you my answer. If my partner called him out and the foot was off the bag AND I saw it AND the offensive coach asked him to get help, I would tell him what I saw and make the correct call. I don't have money on the game. I don't care if the other coach goes bananas. It was the right call. Are you the judge of which coach's complaining is more justified? No! No matter what call gets made, one coach is going to be pissed - the guy who's kid got jobbed or the defensive guy because his kids lost because of an error on F3.

This is a tough call, no doubt. George Brett had a home run taken away because of a bat that didn't meet specs. That was a tough call, but the umpire had a pair and enforced the rules...fairly. If you can't make your game fair for both sides, give the money back.

Re: You gave horrible advice!
 

What if you have a judgment call? You going to tell your partner that what he considered was a balk, was not because you say so? If you do, you might have to throw out more than the coach if it was me.


Of course it is your ONLY focus when you are getting in position and taking your time to make a call. But after you make a call, I am not asking for help or asking my partner what they saw, when I was all over the call.

I never said I have a call that is it, but I know when to ask for help. And there are many calls that I am sticking to. My partner might not even be looking. If I know that, it is not there job to "bail me out." And that is what we are talking about. We are not talking about sticking to a call just to stick to a call. We are talking about the proper procedure to ask for help. In my opinion, this is was not it.

And the last time I checked, I did not care what you think of my advice. Anyone has the right to do what they feel is correct and how they should handle these type of situations. And I do not need a speech about what you do at the Minor Leagues, because most of us do not care or agree with everything that goes on there. ;)

Peace

What if you have a judgment call? You going to tell your partner that what he considered was a balk, was not because you say so?

Yes, if he calls something that clearly was incorrect, I have done that. In fact, I have taught the balk clinic for two major college umpiring associations. But then again, I only work baseball, Therefore I can focus on doing one thing very well, not three half-a**ed

If you do, you might have to throw out more than the coach if it was me.
That would be fine, since one coach wouldn't want you on the field after making a horsesh*t call. I get the call right and get rid of two headaches. They don't call balks in T-ball though, so we probably won't share a field anytime soon.

Your ego has gotten the best of you. You are arguing mechanics with someone that has far more knowledge and infinitely more concern for the game.

What is your point Windy?
 

I do not care what you have taught. The question was not what you taught, the question was what do you do if you disagree with the call? Are you going to change the call that your partner made, because you feel they have kicked it?

My ego has gotten the best of me? You are not even answering the question. All you can say is what you have done and what you have taught? I am not asking you anything about your resume, I want an answer about what you are going to do and why? I think your ego has gotten way out of hand if you believe that everyone thinks the same thing. Even in my other sports, very successful officials disagree on procedure and practice. That is very common. Your opinion I am sure is not the only one out there. And I can think of an umpire that has worked the very same ball you claim to work and would not see it your way.

Peace

Something that is clearly incorrect sounds like more of a rules issue than a judgement issue to me. Lets say the game is played under OBR. F1 attempts a pick off at third from the windup. Your partner the BU calls a balk. I agree with you, you should go out to him and tell him that that is a FED rule. Change the call to no balk.

But if it is a judgement call, then there is nothing you can do about it. F1 pitches and BU calls a balk. He says that F1 did not come to a stop. But you thought that he did stop. Even though it was obvious to you that he did stop, you are stuck with your partner's call. If you go out there and talk to him. Nothing is going to be worked out. He says it was a balk, you say no balk.

It looks to me like you have confused judgement mistake, and a rules mistake.

LDUB,

That is exactly my point. I cannot believe "Mr. Big Dog" is going to change a judgment call of a fellow umpire just because he disagrees with it. He is never going to convince me that is acceptable. But then again, he has that reputation in our area and many do not like to work with him.

I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Peace

Until I am put under the same pressures (and corresonding pay) of a Major League umpire, and the replay cameras that often judge them I will continue to call em like I see em, or ask my partner for help, but once called it's called, and no amount of dirt kicking will change it.

Before we go on for another 4 pages arguing about the times when calls should NOT be changed, at the very begining of this post I stated that this should not be taking to absurdity. However there seems to be a few here that either don't understand that word, don't umpire anything past LL or have ego's that are bigger than the game they are officiating.

IN GAMES WHERE THE PLAYERs SHAVE, usually the partner Im working with would NEVER , NEVER question another officials judgement on calls like a balk. Why, because they have the knowledge and ability to be officiating that game in the first place.

By the same token they also have the intelligence to know how and when to ask for help in certain situations. In those rare, rare times when you need to correct a call, I have only once had it questioned. My reply, "Coach, is the problem that we changed the call or that we got it correct?"
He walked back to the dugout.

We can ALL think of situations where changing the call is not in the best intrest of the contest your officiating but, thoses are NOT the calls that are being discussed here. How about this, Get it right when you Can!

jicecone -
That's exactly my point - get the call right. We were taught that the best way to solve a controversial call was to say, "Skip, we get paid to get them right...we just did."

Rut and Luke,

Apparently I wasn't clear when I said that I have changed BOTH judgement and rule questions with my partners over the years. I have also had calls changed when I was younger and learning. You are obligated to get the call right. I'm sorry that you don't feel compelled to overrule your partner (after conferring with him/her) when he calls an erroneous balk, a catch or rules a ball fair or foul (ALL JUDGEMENT CALLS!) Our professional brethren have no problem checking their egos anymore. They get the call right, even when one of their own f*ck up. If you want to hang a younger umpire because he blows a call, then the wrong umpire is getting yelled at on the field. We all make mistakes, our job is to correct the ones that put a team at jeopardy and make the game unfair. It's admitting that you are wrong, which we all know is very hard for some of us to do.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Jun 29th, 2004 at 10:56 AM]

Shocking!!!
 

Windy,

I realize you do not want to hear this, but in other sports there are many calls you never question. If I call a foul call in basketball, my partner cannot come to me and tell me "it was not a foul." No different than a balk call in baseball or any judgment call. And in basketball we have brain farts and just screw up. But we talk about it after the game, not go and tell them they screwed up then.

I agree if the call is a total misunderstanding of the rules (OBR and FED difference). But to tell us that you are the BU and your partner the PU sees something different, you are going to change that call? Now that is ego run wild. Your partner gets paid too. They are allowed to make judgment calls without your approval. I am not talking about obvious dropped balls on a force play. I am not talking about giving a runner the wrong base on a ball thrown in dead ball territory. I am talking about judgment balk calls or judgment safe/out calls here. All the years I have worked baseball in this state and in this area, I have never heard anyone suggest this is the proper thing to do. If you are teaching all over the country, you surely are not teaching that crap here. Because all the name dropping you have done over this time of year, I have never heard any of them suggest changing a balk call or any call for that matter that is clearly a judgement call.

Just another example of how full of it you are and how your experience does not mean a damn thing to me. Because if that is what they are teaching at that level, I surely want to stay as far away from it as possible.

Peace

When you want to move up...
 

I will address this to those of you who can read...

I made it perfectly clear that it is conferring with your partners to correct a JUDGEMENT CALL or RULE INTERPRETATION is acceptable and the right thing to do. We see examples of this at the CWS and almost every week in MLB. Fan interference, foul balls, dropped catches and balks are all examples of calls that lead to these issues. This post began witha pulled foot and has moved away.

I worked an American Legion State Championship last year that had a play over ruled. One of my partners (6 man) called a balk because the kid turned his shoulder toward first to check the runner. He is a terrific umpire and works a lot of high school baseball. As we know, his call was wrong. I was crew chief and asked him what he saw. He explained and I told him that Legion ball is governed by the American League version of OBR. He made a mistake and agreed that we need to reverse it. We took heat from the fans and one coach road him hard the rest of the game, BUT WE GOT IT RIGHT.

Sure we do our best, but we mess up and it is up to us as ambassadors of the game to get the call right. Baseball is a sport that allows for appeals and assistance. I'm not asking anyone to hesitate or second guess a partner. I teach my clinicians that it is imperative that you get the call right. I am certain that I have gotten many calls wrong over the years. But, I can sleep at night because I was big enough to have my call corrected or diligent enough to correct my partner's erroneous call. Despite what many think, you get to work at this level because of the way you treat the game. There's plenty of time to sooth egos over a beer after the game. And yes, I've been the one that has had to buy the beer because of a bad call.

I have already moved up.
 

All those situations have 4 umpires on a game and where it is possible for more than on umpire to see many things to help with those kind of calls. But I have never seen an umpire call a balk, then his partner from another position change a call. I could be wrong, but I have never seen it happen. I am sure it has happen, but what happen to thoses that changed it?

OK, this is a rules situation. I can agree with your changing the call there. But if we are working a HS playoff game and I call a balk because the pitcher did not come to a discernable stop and you come to me and tell me, "he stopped," you will not have to worry about the coach. I can guarantee you that. ;)

All sports has those situations in place. But you still have to trust your partner and let them earn their paycheck and do their job. There is a reason we have different coverage areas and responsibilities. If you cannot handle that, maybe you need to do the game by yourself, so that every call can be made by yourself.


Well, you are not a clinician at any camp I have attended. And you claim to not be the head clinician of the IHSA, so I know they are not teaching that philosophy. I could be totally wrong, but I have never heard anyone suggest what you are saying.


You sure you never had someone trying to black your eye for those stunts? :rolleyes:

Peace

<b>But I have never seen an umpire call a balk, then his partner from another position change a call. I could be wrong, but I have never seen it happen. I am sure it has happen, but what happen to thoses that changed it?</b>

Last year, BU calls balk and tells coach, loud enough for PU to hear, "Didn't come set." Well he was in the middle of a pick-off move at the time, so PU goes out and they chat. BU then changes his call. No problems the rest of the game.

<B>


OK, this is a rules situation. I can agree with your changing the call there. But if we are working a HS playoff game and I call a balk because the pitcher did not come to a discernable stop and you come to me and tell me, "he stopped," you will not have to worry about the coach. I can guarantee you that. </b>

You have apparently confused "a judgment call" with "every judgment call".

It might as well be "every call."
 

No Garth.

If you want to change a Balk call your partner makes (which is not based on a misapplication of the rules). Then you should be able to change a tag play at second bases as the PU. Change a ball to a strike as the BU. Change a checked swing call, when you are not asked. Because the responsiblity is to "get it right?" So why stop at just one call, change them all if you need to.

Peace

Re: When you want to move up...
 

Your examples are ones where I would have no problems talking with a crew. But consult with a partner over a pulled foot or swipe tag when I worked hard to get in position and I'm certain I saw what happened? Doubtful.

Now, if I get screened? I had a play in the MSBL World Series a few years ago where I came across from C to make a call on a play at first base. Just in time for the money shot, a fielder runs right across my field of vision and I have no freaking idea what happened. Fortunately I saw my partner in the corner of my eye and was able to get help. My safe call would've been a horrible one, but if my partner wasn't in position to help it would've been the only one I could 've made after weighing all the other evidence.

Experienced umpires know when to ask for help and when not to. Most umpires either never ask for help or will ask for help all the time. Neither is appropriate in today's game. If you're finding yourself wanting to ask on a routine play (and most situations, even pulled feet and swipe tags, are routine), you ought to consider your mechanics and your effort.

--Rich

Re: It might as well be
 

Never said I wanted to change ANY call my partner made. I game an example of one umpire providing information to another that led to the ruling umpire to change his own call.

One problem with "slippery slope" arguments like the one you make is that they are often, as in this case, based on ridiculous exaggerations of a point that was never intended to be that encompassing. My logics professor referred to it as arguments of the absurd that poeple fall back on when they either can't make their own point within realistic bounds or have no substantiating data.

Instead of altering others' points, address them as made, either pro or con, doesn't matter. Just don't feel so free to put words in others' mouths. Unless of course you're auditioning for a writing gig at officiating.com

Watch, listen and learn
 

Rich and Garth...Thank you for reading and understanding the point being made. Even the most accomplished officials at the highest level get together and reverse calls when necessary.

Rut -
If you want to change a Balk call your partner makes (which is not based on a misapplication of the rules). Then you should be able to change a tag play at second bases as the PU.

Wow, you must have been at the Sectional Semifinal at New Trier this year. That play actually happened. The base ump called a guy safe, even though he was straightlined. The plate ump had come up to follow the batter into first and saw that the kid was stopped a foot away. The defensive coach went nuts and asked for help. They got together and got the call right. Did it look awful?...yep. Did they do the right thing?...yep. Was the state executive adminstrator there?...yep. He applauded the fact that they worked together to get it right and they will get Sectionals next year because they proved that they are not bigger than the game.

You seem to be hung up on things we have never even discussed here. I offer erroneous fair balls, bad catches, pulled feet and bad balks and you come back with ckeck swings and strikes. Try to argue the same issue.

You claim not care about my opinion, but you've posted a half*assed reply to each and every one. You also claim not to care about my credentials, but then challenge them at every turn. Get a hobby because giving umpiring advice is not your strong suit.

Slippery Slope??
 

Well, if I have to have you do this, what the hell was I doing on the play?

This is not a "slippery slope" argument. You said to "get the call right." If you have to get the call right, when are you going to just let your partners work the game? Do you not have responsibilities to worry about? So you are always watching what they see and their positioning? I only gave an example of the balk because Windy brought it up. He said you should change a balk call so that you "get it right." I only talked about that situation because it was mentioned. I would have never imagined a balk call was the same as a pulled foot or dropped ball. But it was for some reason.


Join the party. Guys like you do this to me all the time. You change the points I make. You exaggerate my philosophies and my values that I hold. You even exaggerate things I have claimed and things I have done.

I took your example (Windy's at least) and applied it to other situations that we could change. If getting it right is the most important thing, then you should not have boundaries on when you use that philsophy. I am not saying this is a slippery slope, I am saying why just stop at balks? No matter what the call, you should change a call, because <b>you</b> feel that your judgment is better than your partner's.

But then again, I am the idiot, the moron and stupid as hell. But you guys want to call everything all over the field to "get it right." Well I live by the philosophy to "trust my partners." I think there is a reason they are there. There is a reason they have to watch things I do not. There is a reason we are considered a team. It is not my job to do his job and for him to do mine. It is our job to work together. When we work together, I might ask for help. But if I am all over it, I do not need help. And if I cannot get in position to make most calls on pulled feet and dropped balls, what the hell am I looking at? That is what I am looking for. And maybe there was a pulled foot, but he got in on the base in time to have an out.

Peace

Re: Watch, listen and learn
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

<i> The base ump called a guy safe, even though he was straightlined. The plate ump had come up to follow the batter into first and saw that the kid was stopped a foot away. The defensive coach went nuts and asked for help. They got together and got the call right. Did it look awful?...yep. Did they do the right thing?...yep. Was the state executive adminstrator there?...yep. He applauded the fact that they worked together to get it right and they will get Sectionals next year because they proved that they are not bigger than the game. </i>

Windy I hear you but my question when does it end?

Most of us have had those games where just about every call was close both at first, the steal attempts, runner(s) tagging from second/third and advancing, etc.

Once you set a precedent by going to your partner the FIRST time, what's going to happen on calls thereafter? If it's one of those games and you change your call on one particular play the coaches will be all over you to CONSTANTLY get help.

It's like doing the dish and the coach is constantly asking us "Where was that one blue" We are not going to allow that to continue the rest of the game.

Also, there will be times when our partner Can't help us - Then what. If you are going to ask for help I still prefer to do it BEFORE a call was made. IMO, it looks good and the results are better.

What I can't undertsand is if the BU does in fact need more info before making the call, why not ask it before he/she makes the call. It's simple "Hey Tom was his / her foot on the bag" Tom: "yes/or no" then we make the call. It looks good and accomplishes the same goal without coaches Constantly on our backs.

Pete Booth

Rut claimed: <B>You said to "get the call right." </B>

No I didn't. You can't find that in anything I wrote. Go ahead and look. We'll wait.

Finished? Find it? Of course not.

Please don't make things up and attribute them to me.

Despite what you think I am not the type of umpire that goes for help. But when asked, if I have something that could be of help, I provide it.

You have either become paranoid, can't read very well or just like to make things up. Maybe we have confused you with so many people posting here. I'll make it simpler for you, I'm out of this thread.

Re: It might as well be
 

This is sometimes the correct mechanic.

Re: Watch, listen and learn
 

I think you need to mind your own ****ing business. For one, we do not have to agree. Your way is certainly not the way many individuals I respect would even dare to do. Why, because they feel their partner is just as important as they are. If you do not agree with my advice, do what you feel is best. Because the last time I checked, I have never know every umpire or official to agree with ever practice. That is clear with all the discussions about indicators, drawing lines in the sand and how to handle coach ejections. It is clear that many from different levels and the same levels do not always agree. I do not care what advice any one takes into account. That is their decision. But if you are working with me, you better dare not change any calls I make when it is based on judgment. If I need help, I have been doing this long enough to know when to ask. If I see the entire play, I will make a decision. Have I made mistakes over the years? We all have. I made a couple this year I was not happy with. I have asked for help a few times when I was not sure on a play. I have also not asked for help, because I had a lazy partner standing behind home plate or misread a play and had their back turned. But I have also had some plays that I thought were complete wrong and I did nothing, because I was never asked. I even asked that very question here, and I cannot remember one person telling me, "you should have changed his call."

If you do not like the advice or the things I say, take the advice of everyone else that you feel fits your point of view. But because I have gone to many camps and heard many clinicians speak, and it is very common to hear umpires and officials at the very same level, handle the very same situation differently. Or at the very least, not agree on the procedure to practice. Maybe you need to take up another sport, so you can get some perspective. Because what I suggest does not just apply to baseball only. There is a reason Referee Magazine and I am sure this place has articles that are about officiating as a whole, not just sports specific issues. And this is not just about a baseball philosophy.

Peace

Both of you are blowing everything out of proportion... but the main BOGUS argument is that all judgement calls are hte same and this idea if you change a call you have to change them all! You can keep arguing that, but no one has ever said that...

Hes only saying that in the right situation it can be OK to change one... changing his argument into "well that means you have to change all the ball and strike calls from the field" is just an absurd arugment...

More argument problems:

"Well, if I have to have you do this, what the hell was I doing on the play?"
-Ok so you get them all right and see everything all the time? Must be nice...

"So you are always watching what they see and their positioning?"
-Nope, another bad argument... but if I am watching and see something different from my angle.....

"No matter what the call, you should change a call"
-He never said that

"because you feel that your judgment is better than your partner's."
-No one said that either... I'm not sure what your arguing but it doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about... no one said change a call because you think your a better judge... he said change it if we see something different that could influence the call.

"But you guys want to call everything all over the field to "get it right.""
-Didn't say that either, again ONE turned into ALL

"And if I cannot get in position to make most calls on pulled feet and dropped balls, what the hell am I looking at?"
-Can you teach me how to get into this "perfect" position to see everything that could possibly happen? If theres a close tag play at second and the fielder rolls towards the left side and the ball falls out, the 3rd base ump sees it fall out, then the player grabs the ball back in his glove first, did I miss the call for being out of position? Should I have knocked the player over to see if the ball was on the ground or not?

These arguments are pretty bad statements... but I agree that your both blowing it out of proportion on both sides of it...

rmstone,

I cannot speak for you, but even when I am all over the play, I have had coaches say I got them wrong.

I had a play this year when I was the BU and there was a runner trying to steal second. The throw was up the baseline toward first base and the throw clearly beat the runner and the fielder made a tag on the shoulder on a feet first slide. The coach complained and made the claim that his runner was safe, because of where the tag was made on his runner. Now I was right there. I clearly saw the entire place and the play was not really close. He even asked for help from my partner. So on a play like that, should my partner come in and tell me what he saw? What if there was a dropped ball? What if the ball being dropped was on a transfer to make a throw, not while making the tag?

Of course I do not get all calls right, but when I am in position, it is not my partner's job to come and tell me when I made a decision. It is not the time to "get it right." It is not the time to get help if I have made a call. This is the premise of the opposition's argument. If that is what side you see, do it that way. I am not going to. It has worked fine for me all these years, I am not going to change because someone on the internet thinks it is a good idea.

Peace

The End of This
 

Pete, Bob, rmstone...I appreciate your insight and your discussion has been lucid.

The ONLY thing I have tried to argue from the beginning is
WE ARE OBLIGATED TO GET THE CALL RIGHT.
We don't have the luxury of instant replay, but we usually have one or more partners. Yes, I trust their judgement but we do get them wrong occassionally. On the pro fields and courts, we are seeing pride put aside and they get the call right.

I don't know where it will end, Pete. I do know that the calls we are seeing in the sports highlights show a need for this scrutiny though. They have experimented with lasers and cameras at the plate and foul lines for years. Until they perfect them, we will be stuck with some tough calls and the need to change them occassionally.

I agreee that we have strayed from the original point and that some will never agree. I will end this discussion and know that at some levels of baseball, you are expected to make mistakes.

My mistake was to argue logically with Rut...again. He did make a good point though. If we ever found ourselves on the same field and I had to change his call, it would never happen again. Because where I work, the coaches won't ask him back.

Ok lets lay it out!!

Best Plan:

A BALANCE of "Getting it right" and "Trusting your partner"... where the line of balance is is up to you...

There, argument over :) Both are solid ideas, so I don't suggest going one way or another... use what best fits the situation...

That depends on how you look at it.
 

I am in the middle.

I believe that you have to get the plays right that you can. But you also have to ultimately trust your partner. Getting it right has very little with asking for help in my opinion. If you take your time, get your timing, see the whole play, you will get the plays right.

Peace

There's sense coming from both sides of this arguement. On one hand, the whole point behind an umpire being on the field is to make the call right. On the other hand, you've got to trust your partner to do their job right.

Everyone on this board has common sense (although some may disagree with that statement :) ). I think we've all been in situations where we made a questionable call that we knew wasn't the best call we could have made. If your partner was there and saw it, then get things right. But keep your head on straight and don't have a conference everytime the coach asks. If a coach keeps asking about a pitch location, you'll start to ignore him or toss him. Same thing if a coach starts coming out and arguing every call.

If the situation warrants it, take whatever steps are needed to get the call right. But don't run to your partner on every close force play to ask if they saw the fielder pull their foot.

Exactly!!!!
 

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I have seen many times where one basketball official says ball out of bounds off blue, and partner comes running up and says ball out of bounds off white, and the ruling changes. It happens way more often that one ump overuling another.

Wrong. There is a specific rule in basketball that will NOT allow one official to OVERULE another official. Ever! You can offer information or your opinion to another official, but it is completely up to the calling official as to whether or not he wants to change a call.

NFHS Rule 2-6- <i>"No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties".</i> NCAA rules use similar language.

No overuling in basketball below the NBA level! And I don't have a clue whether they allow overuling at the NBA level either.

Not exactly, Jurassic
 

Wow, you must have missed the NCAA tourney.

In the first round Texas Tech game, the ball was whistled out and awarded incorrectly. The crowd went crazy and one of the other officials hustled in and must have convinced him that it was deflected - the correct call. Knight looked perplexed but kept his cool since everyone there, except for the guy making the initial call, knew it was the right thing to do. If there is one coach that will jump all over a guy for usurping his authority, it's the General.

Re: Not exactly, Jurassic
 

The calling official, changed the call. Unlike baseball, basketball officials coverage areas are constantly changing. The ball is in constant movement. There are times when a specific official does not see the entire play. I did not see exactly the play you discribe, but I am sure the out of bounds play that you discribe, was the non-calling official giving information. And in basketball, that is totally acceptable on mainly out of bound calls. You cannot do that on foul calls. You cannot tell your partner about a traveling violation. You can mainly do that on out of bounds plays. And even when that happens, it is rare. In baseball, I have nothing else to do but watch a particular base. There are only so many runners at one time. The ball determines what is going to happen, unlike basketball. If I cannot get an angle on a pulled foot, I am not taking my time to make most calls.

I also find it funny that now you want to tell basketball officials of their procedures and practices. See in basketball we have a locker room. If you pull that "get it right crap" on plays they see, you might not come out of that locker room with out an earfull.

Peace

Re: Re: It might as well be
 

Garth;

When I saw the umpire from Illinois' post, I almost wrote a short treastise on "argument absurdium." Then I realized that it would be lost on someone with only a sixth grade comprehension level. I understood exactly what you were writing about and I am sure that most others that can read did also. All but the one that you were trying to communicate with, however.

I take exception to your implication that the umpire from Illinois could write for officating.com. Carl is very low on inventory at the moment (Carl: I am working on a piece this weekend which I should have to you by Tuesday), but I doubt that he is so desperate as to sign up the umpire from Illinois. But I could be wrong.

That leads me to an interesting bet that I would like to make with you and it has a bonus for Rut:

Garth: I will pay you my next article fee ($35) if Rut can become a writer for officiating.com. I figure it this way. Rut has written about 3600 posts, most of them lengthy, lets say an average of 400 words. An officiating.com article should be 800-1000 words which gets the author $35.

At that rate, Rut has written the equivalent of 1800 articles over the that last 4 years or so. At $35 per article, that's $63,000 in unrealized income that he could have made as an officiating.com writer. According to him, he is a master with valuable information for us all. If he doesn't want to write about baseball, he could dazzle us with basketball or football instead.

Now Garth, you are convinced that Rut is officiating.com writer's material. You make references to this regularly. Therefore, you should be a shoe-in to win the $35 from me.

OTOH, if Carl turns Rut down as a full time writer, then you have to sign up as an officiating.com subscriber. We will define success as a full time writer when Rut publishes his 10th article. (I am already up to 100 articles and my writing ability is much less prolific than the great Rut.)

OK, Rut, your reputation is on the line here. You are already spending many hours a day on this and other boards. By my calcualtions, you turn out the euquivalent of ten articles a week here and at McGriffs. If you posted less here and put your brilliance to work on paid pieces, you could have money in your pocket with no extra time invested. And you could prove to the world that you are a brilliant writer and your critics are full of horse manure.

This is your opportunity, Rut. Become a writer for officiating.com. Garth washed out. Rich Fronheiser ran out of ideas and washed out. Warren Willson washed out. The great Rut has the opportunity to succeed when others have failed. From your writings, I know that you will never run out of ideas.

Peter

Triple A## is at it again.
 

You know Peter, I guess TH has a 6th grade understanding as well. Because he said the exact same thing but much shorter. Because a player has an opinion, does not mean they are to be listened to about officiating issues. I also guess the Hawk coach is having problems with my point of view as well, considering that he agreed with a post directed at Garth.

So my reputation is on the line, because some ball-headed, viagra using fool thinks I need a discussion board to validate my opinions? I realize you live a a much smaller area than I do, but I think you need to get a grip on reality.

No Peter. Just like Rich found out, I like my independence. I like the fact that I can say what I say and if I offend someone, I do not have to answer to anyone. Unlike Windy, I do not come here to represent an organization. I come here to represent myself.

But please do not try to convince everyone here that Garth's point of view is so widely accepted and what I had to say was so out there. I realize that you think I am not a very well respected umpire here (like that means a hill of beans in the real world). But in the sport I work the most, I get along here very well. If I were to become a writer here, it surely would not be in baseball. I only spend 3 months out of the year even working a baseball game. I have not done a baseball game since June 3rd, which was my Regional Championship game. I have not missed it one bit and have worked about 40 basketball games and counting in the month of June alone.

So Peter (which fits you perfectly), you seemed to be obsessed with this board and McGriffs. You cannot even write an article without referencing the internet. Some of us have a life outside of this place. Even Windy gets out of the house from time to time. When are you going to smell the fresh air? <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_9_31.gif' alt='Salto Del Angel' border=0></a> Because if you are worried about someone's reputation here, you really need to get out more often.

Peace

Just when I thought I was out...
 

He just couldn't help himself...my post was directed directly to another member. It specifically addressed a point that he made and found error with it. Rut then jumps in without seeing how deep it is.

The calling official, changed the call.

Wow, just like baseball, when your partner confers with you and says that the ball hit the foul pole or that the fielder was off the bag on a force play.

Unlike baseball, basketball officials coverage areas are constantly changing. The ball is in constant movement.
Hmmm...in baseball, the ball remains still? There are no other worries (interference, obstruction, missed bases, bobbled catches)?

There are times when a specific official does not see the entire play.
Yes, like in the baseball discussion we have had here.

I did not see exactly the play you discribe, but I am sure the out of bounds play that you discribe, was the non-calling official giving information.
Okay, kind of like a pulled foot, fould ball off the batter's foot, foul pole call, etc.

And in basketball, that is totally acceptable on mainly out of bound calls. You cannot do that on foul calls. You cannot tell your partner about a traveling violation. You can mainly do that on out of bounds plays.

Okay, your point is...? I don't believe that I ever said that EVERY CALL can and should be over ruled. I said that if your partner comes to you and says that he saw something different, you should do the right thing and correct the call. He has put himself in a position to help, not big league you.

In baseball, I have nothing else to do but watch a particular base. There are only so many runners at one time. The ball determines what is going to happen, unlike basketball. If I cannot get an angle on a pulled foot, I am not taking my time to make most calls.
Six guys - the best of the best - in the NLCS at Wrigley last year. 12 eyes and no one sees the ball caught by Kenny Lofton. As I recall, each guy only has one responsibility and not much else was happening. But you're probably more talented, that is why you don't need help.

I also find it funny that now you want to tell basketball officials of their procedures and practices.

I didn't say anything of the sort. I pointed out a play in direct response to a statement saying that such doesn't happen. No mechanics or techniques discussed. Or did you miss that, too?

See in basketball we have a locker room. If you pull that "get it right crap" on plays they see, you might not come out of that locker room with out an earfull.
Uh oh, you mean you guys might yell at me for critiquing my partner's performance??? That's awfully thin skinned of you cagers. I like having my partners discuss the job we did, usually over a beer. We get better that way. Too bad, you don't want people to pick at your game.

Re: Triple A## is at it again.
 

Rut;

Carl gives his writers complete independence. He doesn't care that I regularly tick off the readership. The more controversy the better and believe me, there are a lot of people that get ticked off at what I write. I have the undying hatred of Little Leaguers and t-ballers.

The only thing that I can't do is call Carl an a$$hole, even if he is. :D

This argument won't wash, Rut. You cannot use as an excuse that you will lose your independence. It just isn't true. I am living proof of that. Four years ago, there was no one on the Internet that Carl hated more than me. I am sure that anyone who has been around that long will bear me out.

He still hired me because I had something useful to say and was entertaining in the process. He will hire you if you have something useful to say in a language that bears a resemblance to English. Many of us writers lack professional journalism skills; he hires us anyway and edits out our worst mistakes.

So, Rut, it's time to put up. I know you won't shut up. The major posters at officiating.com have all taken a stab at writing an article or two for the site. Only the trolls with no names or the total newbies with nothing to say, sit on the sidelines.

It's time for to step up to the plate and take your turn at bat. You are doing the work by writing tons of stuff, why not get paid for it.

Unless of course, you are worried about rejection and being exposed as a fraud.

Naw, not the great Rut.

Peter

Re: Triple A## is at it again.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

You know Peter, I guess TH has a 6th grade understanding as well. Because he said the exact same thing but much shorter. Because a player has an opinion, does not mean they are to be listened to about officiating issues. I also guess the Hawk coach is having problems with my point of view as well, considering that he agreed with a post directed at Garth. Peace

Who is TH? I don't see any post by someone named TH. Are you making stuff up again?

Who is the Hawk coach? I don't see anyone posting to this thread called "Hawk Coach." Are you making stuff up again?

Furthermore, I don't see anyone agreeing with you. I do see a post by YOU claiming that someone is agreeing with you but there is doubt as to whether he was refering to Garth's post.

You are 0-3, Rut. Some batters have bad days and go 0-3. Try tomorrow.

Re: Re: Triple A## is at it again.
 

So.

You just did.

So.

Whatever you say.

They have? JR has? Tony has? There was a list of the Top 10 Posters at one time on this board. I believe all of them were primarily Basketball Officials. I think none of them except maybe Bob J. wrote for this site. And Bob only did that on the Baseball Board. I would not want to write about baseball umpiring, not with my lack of interest during most of the year. I am a month away from my first Football Meetings and I have enough to do there as a Board Member.

I do not need any money. Maybe you do, but I have better ways to make my money.

I sit on at least one board in each of my sports. I am the Vice President of one of my Basketball Boards. I am the Treasurer of my Football Board (elected twice). I was just elected on my Baseball Board (I was nominated without being asked). And I sat as the Vice President of that very same baseball board for two years. I also will represent another association (Which I am a member in football and basketball) as a delegate to the IHSA Convention in about two weeks. If I was a fraud, I would never have been given the responsiblity to make decisions that I have to make. I would never have been voted in these positions and I would have been asked to speak at all the major clinics (all 3 sports I might add) that are put on in my area. I only say this because if I was a complete fraud, I would never have been given these opportunities ever. And I have worked playoffs in all my sports. So if I am a fraud, I am really fooling a lot of people. Espeically considering that many of these people that have voted for me or asked me to get involved, have seen me work on the field. Or they assign me to work games for them as well. I would rather become a writer on Referee Magazine or the NF Quarterly, where people literally across the country really read and follow the information in those articles. I have never heard anyone outside of this board talk about your article. But I have had several conversations about what was said in the other publications. But then again, that might mean that you are not as important as you think you are. ;)

Peace

Rut is at it again!
 

Rut;

You are the first to get offended when someone uses your race to criticize you, as you have a right to be. The color of your skin is not something that you can do anything about unless you want to go the Michael Jackson route which is a bid weird. It is not relevant to any discussion about the correctness of umpire opinions.

Likewise, my baldness is not something that I can do anything about and your reference to it is bigoted and inappropriate. My potency or lack thereof is also nothing that I can do anything about and your reference to it is bigoted and inappropriate.

On the other hand, your failure to master the English language is your fault and a rightful source of criticism on our part.

Likewise, your failure to master proper forms of debate is entirely your own and we have a right to criticize it. You arguments based on my disabilites or absurd analogies are no more relevant than arguments based on the color of your skin.

Now I wonder only one thing. Are the above simply stated paragraphs, simple enough for you brain to understand? Or are you as stupid as the KKK bigots that bedeviled your forefathers?

Oh Rut, one more lie that you told. It's one that you have repeated often. You wrote:

"I realize you live a a much smaller area than I do, but I think you need to get a grip on reality."

I umpire from the North Carolina border to the Mason Dixon Line. This area encompasses 15 million people.

How many people live in Northern Illinois where you umpire? Who needs to get a grip on reality now?

Peter

Please tell us
 

Rut;

I got a job umpiring in a different college baseball association based in part on my writings on officiating.com.

Please tell us: What umpiring or basketball officiating assigments have you obtained based on your writings either on the Internet or in some other publication that we can check out?

Peter

To Windy
 

The type of play you are talking about is just a simple out of bounds play. Not fouls, not other violations, not even whether a basket counts.

You are talking about balks, pulled feet, dropping of the baseball and just about any other call that you feel took place.

In basketball that is very rare. And when basketball officials want help, we ask for it. It is not acceptable on a basketball court to always come to your partner and tell them about out of bounds plays.

But then again, you know the procedure and how it applies to basketball. Because I have never been taught on the basketball court to "get it right" in front of my partner, because I disagree with the call. That is what you are advocating. If that is wrong, I am sure you will tell me. I am not so much concerned about a pulled foot as I am when you mentioned changing a balk call based on judgment.

And if I did what you suggest on the basketball court, I would never have anyone that would want to work with me. And in basketball, the "get it right" attitude will get you no where if you call things directly in front of your partner. The term "trust your partner" comes to mind there.

You seem to know more about that than JR, who has more officiating experience than most of us here. You seem to know what is acceptable in that game. I agree there are some comparisons, but your example does not apply. Because basketball officials do not "change" our partner's calls, we give help. And we do not give help on plays where our partners are all over it. If they see the out of bounds call and we know they were standing right there, we do not come in a change it. But then again, you know.

Please tell me how many basketball camps you have taught at or attended to tell me otherwise. I have actually been a clinician at basketball camps and taught these procedure. So tell me how much you understand the game of basketball officiating more that me? Since that is your argument for knowing what to do in baseball as your explaination.

Peace

You are joking right?
 

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Well considering that I have never recieved any assignments as a result of writing on the internet, that would be not a one.

But I have not <b>ever met personally</b> a single umpire or official that gained a single assignment for speaking on the internet. As a matter of fact, the most accomplished officials I know in any sport, did not do so thru the internet to get those opportunities. Even your boy, has not claimed to achieved anything thru the internet. He did it like 99.9 percent of those, by working games or attending camps.

Maybe you have recieved opportunities this way, but you would be the only person I have ever heard that has. I have been hired by many assignors or ask to speak and certain events and most do not even know anything about this or any place. And they really do not care. That is what camps and clinics are for. ;)

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Peace

I think I figured out what he meant...
 

Next time, use English and logic, please.

The type of play you are talking about is just a simple out of bounds play. Not fouls, not other violations, not even whether a basket counts.

Yes, I know what I said. I pointed out one VERY SIMPLE AND SPECIFIC EXAMPLE. You confused the issue by trying to prove me wrong with tangents.

You are talking about balks, pulled feet, dropping of the baseball and just about any other call that you feel took place.

Again, all things that can be called incorrectly, what is your point?

But then again, you know the procedure and how it applies to basketball. Because I have never been taught on the basketball court to "get it right" in front of my partner, because I disagree with the call. That is what you are advocating.

No I'm not. Jurassic Referee made a comment that was incorrect. I provided a very real example. You jumped in and found out that the water is very deep.

If that is wrong, I am sure you will tell me.
I just did.

I am not so much concerned about a pulled foot as I am when you mentioned changing a balk call based on judgment.

I gave you an example of an incorrect judgement call on a balk that required correction. What is your problem understanding it? Everyone else understood it.

The term "trust your partner" comes to mind there.
Do you need me to go to McGriff's and copy your comment about sometimes having the need to change an incorrect call?
Your words will come back to haunt you.

You seem to know more about that than JR, who has more officiating experience than most of us here.

I know of a guy that worked 42 years of youth baseball. His forty two years did not come in handy when he was asked to fill in as my partner at an Amrican Legion tournament. He made two calls that cost one team the ball game. "Experience" versus doing it for a long time are two different animals.

You seem to know what is acceptable in that game. I agree there are some comparisons, but your example does not apply. Because basketball officials do not "change" our partner's calls, we give help.
When the situation arises, I give my partner my persepctive. If we agree that the call should be changed, we do it - together!

And we do not give help on plays where our partners are all over it.

Like an incorrect balk or a foul ball off the pole?


Please tell me how many basketball camps you have taught at None...i find basketball to be boring.

I have actually been a clinician at basketball camps and taught these procedure. So tell me how much you understand the game of basketball officiating more that me? Since that is your argument for knowing what to do in baseball as your explaination.
If that is your conclusion, then your reading teacher should be fired. Did you notice that you are the only one trying to argue this? Jurassic Referee realizes that his point was challenged successfully and hasn't said a peep. You continue to stun us with your revisionist sense of history.

Even Custer knew when he was going to lose the battle.
You ran out of bullets a long time ago.
By the way, I never once mentioned your race, size or shape. But you keep throwing barbs at HHH. Can't you argue effectively without calling names?

Re: Not exactly, WCB.
 

Wow, you missed the point, WCB. DG was alluding to basketball officials over ruling each other. Well, that don't happen. Ever!

The official above changed his OWN call after listening to the information that was offered to him by another official. That happens all the time. He was NOT over ruled by another official. You can NEVER over rule another official in basketball- plain and simple. There's a very simple theory behind the explicit rule that I detailed in my first post. The basketball rulesmakers don't want their officials to try and assert their OWN judgement over another official's judgement.

Re: I think I figured out what he meant...
 

And what comment might that be?

You know exactly what I am saying.
 

I was a clinician at Rock Valley College a few weeks ago. I am currently a clinician during a summer league at Oak Park River Forest. I am also speaking at IACAO this year. I acted as a clinician last year with some first year officials and teaching two man and officiating procedures.

I am not going to speak for JR. But knowing him like I do over the years, if he agreed with your point of view, he would probably tell you. JR does not just go and hide on any issue. And if he is done talking to you because you are a tool, he will tell you about that as well. Do not think he just agrees with you at all. Both JR and me are not the only ones that have disagreed with you on this. There have been others that have taken issue with you on your perspective. But Peter and you have made this all about me.

I did not realize we were keeping score and why people decided not to respond. You seem to know a lot about what other people think and what others seem to feel.

You should leave your advice to your cronies.

I keep thrown barbs at Peter because he is always getting personal with me. You do not have to get personal just by using race or name calling. He is calling me a fraud (which I am still waiting for evidence) without saying how I am a fraud. I guess I am a fraud because I dare challenge the outrageous point of view from two individuals that have never worked with me. Peter lives in DC or some place. What the hell does he know about me? You do not even know anything about me either. You claim I live in a Southwest Suburb. Peter was not even in on this discussion, but he has posted a bunch of things about me. This discussion is not about me, this is about a point of view. He has even posted to challenge me to something that has nothing to do with this discussion. But I am the one name calling?

The bottom line, I do not agree with your point of view on this. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not about the level we do or the camps we attend. I have worked many games with folks on your level that you claim to be working. I have yet remember any of them to see it your way on this issue. Umpires crews are a team, it is not my job to do it for them. They have to make many tough calls without my help. And they have to make those calls when I am watching something else. I would love to watch everything my partner does, but I cannot all the time. And if my partner has a bang, bang play and does not ask for help, I am not giving help. I also discuss this in every single pregame I have. I also discuss the many situations where help should be asked for if needed. Now if you want to say, "this is what we do at the D1 level," that is fine and helpful. Because we all can learn from that. But what happens in the college ranks, does not always apply to the HS and lower levels. For one, we might not have the same amount of umpires on the field and we might not have the same guidelines to handle those situations. The very same thing for your Minor League experience. Anyone that knows anything realizes that all those levels have some different guidelines and philsophies at play. That is the case in my other sports. I know it is not different in baseball. If you want to dismiss my point of view, good. That is your right.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jun 30th, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

Peep. Just got back from fishing.

Uh, WCB, your statements were completely, totally and unarguably WRONG. Is that plain enough for ya? I posted the rule that proved that. Basketball officials CANNOT EVER over rule another official. Take a minute and read that rule I posted. I didn't make it up. Honest. Please note that I haven't gotten involved in the baseball aspects of this thread. And I won't. To do so without a complete understanding of baseball rules and mechanics would be a very big mistake on my part. Do you see where I'm coming from?

What a joke...
 

Jurassic,
Don't play games.

You claim that basketball officials never overrule a bad call. You said that includes FED and NCAA. I pointed out one very specific occasion where it happened in the NCAA Tourney last year.

Now, you say that it wasn't overruled, the other official came in and gave another persepctive indicating that his call was incorrect. Then the calling official changed the call, but it was not over ruled. This is semantics, not a court of law. When one official makes a bad call and another confers with him (maybe it takes just seconds, maybe longer) to contradict the call - AND IT IS CHANGED - it has been overruled. A ruling was made and it was turned over, thus...OVERRULED!

I have never once said that another official should come in to the play, call "Time" and say, "Nope, that's not the way I saw it. He's safe!" You know how it is handled and what I said. If you need to have it spelled out, then it's no wonder your name implies time gone by.

In baseball, if I see my partner make an error that is correctable, we get together and both relay the change to those involved. Sometimes, I have done it myself when the mistake was especially egregious. Other times, he insisted on explaining it himself.

Does that explain your comment and answer your question? I can't make it any more clear.

LOGIC = REASON
 

I was a clinician at Rock Valley College a few weeks ago. I am currently a clinician during a summer league at Oak Park River Forest. I am also speaking at IACAO this year. I acted as a clinician last year with some first year officials and teaching two man and officiating procedures.

Did you ask me if I was a basketball clinician? I don't recall asking you about that sport or your experience with it. I already told you, baseketball is boring.



I am not going to speak for JR.

Too late, your next word was but...

There have been others that have taken issue with you on your perspective.

Yes, they were wrong. When most every major professional sport allows some sort of instant replay or process for overturning bad calls, how can you argue that it is a bad thing?

But Peter and you have made this all about me.

Not so, I replied to a specific ruling from another member. You jumped in and started making accustaions and alluding to things that were not relevant to the discussion.

After I said that I was done with you, you couldn't help getting in a cheap shot. Learn to argue logically, restrict yourself to pertinent facts and then you can play along. Until then, I'll just keep my newspaper rolled up and get ready to swat you again for doing something stupid.

Re: What a joke...
 

And I guess that I still haven't made myself clear. Let me try again.

YOU ARE WRONG!! ONE BASKETBALL OFFICIAL CANNOT OVER RULE ANOTHER BASKET BALL OFFICIAL. NEVER! WE ARE SPECIFICALLY NOT ALLOWED TO BY RULE.

The play reference that you gave is not applicable at all. The official was NOT over ruled on that play.He changed his own call, but he was NOT over ruled.

Don't try to use your own personal "semantics" to tell me that I am wrong. I ain't. You are.

Btw, again please note that I refrained from name calling. Unlike your little comment in red above.

Re: LOGIC = REASON
 

I can see you are getting out of your element a bit. The NFL can only rule on very specific situations. They cannot overrule penalty calls or most judgment calls for that matter. They can mainly look at catch/no catch. A spot (which I have yet to see overturned btw). And the NFL has a very specific procedures that the coaches are the main people to request those plays.

The NBA or NCAA can only use the clock for timing errors and last second shots.


I will admit that you recently have taken the higher road, but do not come here trying to act like you are so much better than everyone. If you are so concerned with name calling, you should be taking those same words to Peter. I can post just about anything, and Peter comes after me. Have you got on him? Of course not.

So it is not logic because it does not fly with your point of view? I see. This is about you. You have not once in this post taken issue with my points. All you can do is talk about Peter and how much my argument does not make sense. You used JR all throughout your previous post, then when he came back, you say it does not know what he is talking about.

I will say this, there is a reason our peers say the things they say about you. ;)

Peace

Let me repeat
 

Rut;

You always respond to every post line by line so I will repeat the post below. You seem to have skipped it.

Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

You know Peter, I guess TH has a 6th grade understanding as well. Because he said the exact same thing but much shorter. Because a player has an opinion, does not mean they are to be listened to about officiating issues. I also guess the Hawk coach is having problems with my point of view as well, considering that he agreed with a post directed at Garth. Peace

Who is TH? I don't see any post by someone named TH. Are you making stuff up again?

Who is the Hawk coach? I don't see anyone posting to this thread called "Hawk Coach." Are you making stuff up again?

Furthermore, I don't see anyone agreeing with you regarding your discussion with Garth. I do see a post by YOU claiming that someone is agreeing with you but there is doubt as to whether he was refering to Garth's post.

You are 0-3, Rut. Some batters have bad days and go 0-3. Try tomorrow.

You are kidding right?
 

TH or Tony has posted more than anyone on this board. And most of us that work other sports, knows exactly who he is. You cannot be here on this site and not know who he is.

He is a coach that has posted on the basketball board for years. I did reference both of them in response to what Garth said. Garth is the person that referenced his post on the Basketball board. So if no one saw things my way, I know they would have taken me to task. They have before, I am sure nothing would have stopped them today.

Hawk did. Tony totally dismissed Garth's claim. Are you sure you can read? The only person that took issue with me, was Garth. And when another person took issue with one of my points, Dan ref made a point of his own. That is what we do, we discuss and debate. Notice, no names were called in doing so.

Here it goes

Now here is the post, read the entire thing. Of course there are disagreements, that is what we do. But TH beat me too the claim that GarthB made. So you can take that for what it is worth.

Peace

Re: You are kidding right?
 

Rut;

This is bizarre:

Garth's total contribution to the discussion on the basketball board is as follows: (in a response to another one of you grammatically challenged posts)

"Sounds like you're suggesting she should know her place and shut up.

How enlightened.
__________________
GB"

From this, you extrapolate two responses on the basketball board to a totally unrelated discussion on the baseball board and make an assumption that basketball officials have agreed with you on the baseball board.

Bizarre doesn't begin to describe the strange way that your brain is wired.

Recall that Garth stated that you need to learn accepted methods of discussion and argument. WCB has seconded that motion. And I would gather that the rest of the congregation said

AMEN

Let me rephrase my question. What does any of the discussion on the basketball board have to do with the discussion on the baseball board? How does anyone agreeing with you on the basketball board have any relevance to our discussion here?

You might need more Gingko!
 

The play reference that you gave is not applicable at all. The official was NOT over ruled on that play.He changed his own call, but he was NOT over ruled.

Don't try to use your own personal "semantics" to tell me that I am wrong. I ain't. You are.

Nice use of our native tongue...incomplete sentences, incorrect grammar and no logic. Did you see the play? I did...he whistled it out, pointed the direction of award and the crowd went nuts. The closest opposing player jumped up and down at the call. One of the referees ran over, they conferred for about ten seconds and the referee who came in with the help, SIGNALLED THE OTHER WAY! The ref who made the initial call moved up the side and the "helping" ref worked the inbounds. These were Division 1 referees and from what I understand, it's pretty tough to get the call for those games, so they must be pretty good. I guess they should have consulted with you and Rut before they made the call.

Btw, again please note that I refrained from name calling. Unlike your little comment in red above.
JR, that is not name calling. Implying that your screen name is fitting would be sarcasm. But you chose your name. If I was "FatJim13", I sure wouldn't gripe when someone implies that I'm overweight. I ain't complainin'...you are.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Jun 30th, 2004 at 04:19 PM]

PLEASE LERN TO READ
 

Do you live in a vacuum?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Yes, they were wrong. When most every major professional sport allows some sort of instant replay or process for overturning bad calls, how can you argue that it is a bad thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can see you are getting out of your element a bit. The NFL can only rule on very specific situations. They cannot overrule penalty calls or most judgment calls for that matter. They can mainly look at catch/no catch. A spot (which I have yet to see overturned btw). And the NFL has a very specific procedures that the coaches are the main people to request those plays.

The NBA or NCAA can only use the clock for timing errors and last second shots.

Again, learn to read. I said that there are mechanisms and processes in place at almost every professional sport to allow for the correct call to be made. They do this to protect the integrity of the game. I never specified a sport or said every call is eligible for challenge. You are a very selective reader. The point I made is that if they are giving their officials the opportunity to correct their judgement, why would you be opposed to it at the high school and college level?

Re: You might need more Gingko!
 

Let us say everything you say is true. You were at the game? You heard the conversation that they had with each other? I just got back from a camp where a D1 Officials runs a camp with his name as the headliner. Do you want to tell him how much you know about Basketball Officiating?


Of course it is not name calling. The Almight WindyCityBlue says so. The very same person who has so much respect in Chicago, but cannot give his name. Not that we cannot figure it out. There are only so many guys with a resume that you claim you have, but that is why the folks around you say what the do about you.

<b>"You might need more Gingko!"</b>

I guess this statement is about the issue, not name calling. :rolleyes:

Peace

Reading 101
 

This wasn't even directed to you. You just can't help yourself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]Let us say everything you say is true. You were at the game? You heard the conversation that they had with each other? I just got back from a camp where a D1 Officials runs a camp with his name as the headliner. Do you want to tell him how much you know about Basketball Officiating?

WHAT THE F*CK??? I am pointing out a play JR says doesn't exist. It has nothing to do with correct mechanics. He said it cannot, never, ever happen 'cause it's a rule. Well, these guys are much more accomplished thatn either of you and they allowed it to happen. I don't care about band camp, basketball camp or whatever special ed camp you attended. It has nothing to do with a statement made to another person.

Of course it is not name calling. The Almight WindyCityBlue says so. The very same person who has so much respect in Chicago, but cannot give his name. Not that we cannot figure it out. There are only so many guys with a resume that you claim you have, but that is why the folks around you say what the do about you.

You have no idea who I am. You keep guessing and very incorrectly, I might add. If you did, you would use my name and call me out. Instead, you point to a member of my group that lives in Roselle. I am humored, he laughs at you.

Re: PLEASE LERN TO READ
 

Windy;

Why would you expect him to be able to read English? He can't write it. :D

As far as the question about the vacuum is concerned it would appear that the answer is "YES"! The vacuum is contained in that space between his ears.

Peter

Re: PLEASE LERN TO READ
 

I did not realize pro baseball had replay. :rolleyes:


This is your exact quote. What did you mean by this then?


Well, football and basketball and hockey are the only pro sports I can think of that uses replay. Hockey only uses it for goals. No offside calls or penalty calls. Not even the World Football League uses replay, which is owned by the NFL. I have never seen it in Arena. I do not watch a lot of soccer, but I have never seen replay in the MLS. They do not use it in Tennis. They do not use it in pro Softball. Never seen it in beach volleyball. Nascar does not use it to make on the spot decisions using replay. The Indy Racing League the same. And I have never seen Tiger Woods wait on a decision after further review. But those are most sports, and I have yet to see them in baseball as well.


For one, you are talking about one call and trying to apply it to other judgment calls. As I have stated, you cannot give information about a foul call. You cannot give information to correct a travel call. You cannot give information about most judgment calls, except for an out of bounds call. You called it "over-ruling" and JR took exception to that language. Again, you were not at the actual game and you did not hear the conversation between the two officials, but you know what happen. A balk call to me is just like a foul call. It is my judgment. Of course, if I ruled based on an incorrect rule, I have not problem with correcting me or any umpire about how we are going to apply a rule. That is acceptable in all sports. Just like you are not going to tell me I messed up a 5 second call, you better not tell me I called a balk incorrectly, when that is my judgment. You talk about being D1, I know you do not do that with those guys. You cannot tell me that makes you a lot of friends? But you will and call me stupid and say I do not know what I am talking about. Or that I have no logic.

Whatever.

Peace

Re: Reading 101
 

I really do not care who you are. It is just obvious to folks that know, because you keep telling everyone who you are with your resume.


Actually, other folks guessed. And they said who they think you are. You want to believe it is me, but I only know one D1 and Minor Minor League umpire personally. He does not feel the way you do about any of this crap. Not in the actual phone conversations I have had with him, nor the the conversations I have had with him in person.


I do not care where he lives or you live. When I start worrying about baseball umpires and their current thoughts, I will let you know. Do not hold your breathe.

Peace

Lemme say it again very slowly for you, WCB:

<font color = red>Basketball officials can never over rule another basketball official! Ever!</font>

NCAA rule 2-2-3- <i>"No official shall have authority to set aside or question decisions made by other official(s) within the limits of their respective duties"</i>
NCAA rule 2-2-4- <i>"One official may assist another official by providing additional information related to a made decision"</i>.

In the situation that you laid out, the officials followed the procedure contained in the appropriate NCAA rules quoted above. One official did NOT over rule another official, as YOU stated earlier. They aren't allowed to, under the rules that I cited.

You were wrong. You still are wrong. If you continue to insist on saying that a basketball official over ruled another basketball official in that situation, you will be wrong again. And if you post your resume again, as you seem to like to do every 2 or 3 posts or so, that won't help you at all either and you will be just as wrong. And you can call me names or make smart remarks as often as you like too, which seems to be another posting tactic that you like to use, and that still won't change the fact that you were wrong.

Jur-***-ic reply
 

Jurassic -

Okay, I'm wrong. The play never happened. I never saw it. It couldn't occur because you say so. End of story.

Arguing with the feable minded is just not fun anymore, so I will not try to challenge you on this topic again.

Re: Jur-***-ic reply
 

Can never admit you are wrong I see?

You are right, you do baseball at the Minor League and D1 Level, but you know what the conversation entailed by watching it on TV. I thought Superman got killed off in the comic books?

Peace

Re: Jur-***-ic reply
 

Feeble minded? Jur-***-ic?

Lot of class there, WCB. You're completely predictable, though. Did you forget to post your resume this time, to go along with the slurs?

Your post above is complete and utter crap. The play happened exactly as you said it did. Except for the point that we have been arguing all along. One official did NOT over rule the other official. You can spew your bullsh*t as much as you like, but there ain't nuthin' that's gonna change that fact. You were wrong, and you don't have the balls to admit it.

Watch TV and learn
 

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Again, learn to read. I said that there are mechanisms and processes in place at almost every professional sport to allow for the correct call to be made. They do this to protect the integrity of the game.
------------------------------------------------------------

I did not realize pro baseball had replay.

Refer to the first sentence...almost every doesn't mean "ALL".


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
"When most every major professional sport allows some sort of instant replay or process for overturning bad calls, how can you argue that it is a bad thing?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is your exact quote. What did you mean by this then?

Careful, this might hurt. WHY...ARE...YOU...AFRAID...TO...HAVE...A...MECHANI SM...IN...PLACE...THAT...ALLLOWS...YOU...TO...GET. ..THE...CALL...RIGHT? If many professsional sports allow bad rulings to be changed by their officials, even judgement calls (Example: completed catch in the end zone or sideline), why are you opposed to allowing your partner to help you get a call right on a high school baseball field? Yes, we know you are a GOD and never are out of position, but ON THIS SITE, you said that you would never allow it to happen.


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
The point I made is that if they are giving their officials the opportunity to correct their judgement, why would you be opposed to it at the high school and college level?
------------------------------------------------------------------------


For one, you are talking about one call and trying to apply it to other judgment calls.

No I'm not. I've pointed out several calls. Go back and read.

As I have stated, you cannot give information about a foul call. You cannot give information to correct a travel call. You cannot give information about most judgment calls, except for an out of bounds call. You called it "over-ruling" and JR took exception to that language.

Yes, he's wrong. Everyone else seems to be able to understand. I gave up trying with him. Old dogs are good for one thing...

Again, you were not at the actual game and you did not hear the conversation between the two officials, but you know what happened.

SportsCenter is so cool...you should watch it sometime. Besides showing it from several different angles, the commentator pointed out that the correct call had been made by teh official that had the better angle...not the calling official. And yes, I saw it on live TV, too. While, I'm certain that the official didn't say, "Hey Rut, the was the worst call I ever saw, let's give texas Tech the ball because I've got five grand on this one." I've been around long enough, to know that the guy who called it wrong, had no problem getting it corrected. How's that..."Corrected", not overruled. Maybe your fragile egos can handle that.

Re: Watch TV and learn
 

When I work pro ball, I will worry about what the pros do. Simple enough for me. And it helps that they have usually more umpires on the field. Unless they are at the lowest of levels of baseball.


You need to read what I said, and stop trying to let your "Peter" decide for you what to think. I have no problem with getting calls right, but if my partners cannot get basic calls right, they will not be there anymore. Chances are, they had a better look at the play than I did.

I have, it still makes not sense. :rolleyes:



He was? OK, I will take your word for it. You do Minor League Baseball. Why not tell us what the NFL does with their calls as well? You know some NFL Officials too right, tell us what they do?

You are quoting SportsCenter as a justification for what officials do? SC has said guys were out of position, the officials did not use the proper rule or that the official was out of line, but you are quoting SC as a justification for this argument?

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif' alt='Too Funny' border=0></a>

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_6_20.gif' alt='Peace' border=0></a>

Yup, we sure are, Windy:
http://www.gifs.net/animate/bulldog56.gif

Get the idea? :D

Now, I'm still waiting for you to tell me WHY the FED and NCAA rules citations that I posted ARE wrong, and exactly HOW one basketball official CAN over rule another basketball official, as YOU stated. I await that explanation. Not your resume, Windy. To be quite honest, resumes always seem to be a little suspect when their author obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Please try to keep away from your usual slurs that you also like to insert in place of a logical argument. They really don't serve much of a purpose either. Just give me a simple explanation that will tell me why the rules that I cited are wrong, and you are right, Windy.

Ok, I don't know anything about basketball officiating but I just read the posts in question. Despite your lies, Windy did not say anything about one basketball referee overruling another. What he said was, two referees got together and talked and the call was changed. Since you appear to be unable to get that point, let me explain how that works in baseball. One official does not overrule another in baseball either, but here is how it works:

I see my partner tank a call and I get together with him. Most likely, he changes the call, but if he refuses and I am the big dog, I say quietly to him:

"You either change that call or this will be the last game you work at this level." Unless he is an idiot, and wants to retire, HE changes the call. Notice, that I did not change the call, HE did. Umpires don't change other umpires calls, we put pressure on our partners to change them. It's all a matter of semantics.

Which is exactly what Windy said. The call got changed. Who knows what transpired between the officials. One could have reminded the other about his position in the big scheme of things.

Once again for the reading challenged, Windy did not say that one official overruled the other. He said that the call got changed after a conference. He does not know what pressure one official placed on another. Neither do you.

This discussion reminds me of the umpire from down under (who diddles with sheep) who insisted that other umpires never changed calls. He went through exactly the same tortured logic as you to insist that calls cannot be changed by other umpires.

OK, they can't. I admit that by the rules, I cannot change another umpires calls. But I can put enough pressure on him to make him "voluntarily" change his own call.

And that is what Windy was saying. And you would have recognized that if you weren't joined at the hip with the moron from Illinois.

Rut, do you think that I am WindyCityBlue. Is that one of my aliases? Am I fronting as WCB in order to make it appear as if I have support. That is your logic, isn't it? :D

Peter

[Edited by His High Holiness on Jun 30th, 2004 at 06:52 PM]

Your exact words are quoted <i>verbatim</i> above, Windy. Just trying to help your memory out when you answer my question.

Or maybe you're trying to say that the official over ruled HIMSELF? :D

Ok, I don't know anything about basketball officiating but I just read the posts in question. Despite your lies, Windy did not say anything about one basketball referee overruling another. What he said was, two referees got together and talked and the call was changed.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Lies? Read the post above this one. Then apologize.

Ok, I don't know anything about basketball officiating..... [/B][/QUOTE]Well, that's completely obvious. It's just as obvious that your joined-at-the-hip friend, Windy,doesn't know anything about basketball officiating either. Now, why do you both insist on arguing a procedure that is spelled out very plainly in the basketball rules? You're both wrong. Deal with it.

Jurassic;

No apology!

You suffer from the same reading deficiencies as Rut. You seem to be incapable of placing things in context. Go back and read ALL of Windy's posts. In the context of ALL of his posts, I have adequately stated his position. You, on the other hand, have engaged in Rut tactics. You take quotes out of context and run off on a tangent. Rut is famous for taking snippets of information and writing a 300 word dissertation that completely misrepresents what the author wrote.

This was a classic characteristic of the man from down under who diddles with sheep. His posts resembled Rut's in that they cut a post into five or ten pieces and went off on five or ten tangents of misrepresentation. The difference however, was that the man from down under had an excellent command of the English language.

Peter

With all due respect, Peter, that is one humongous load of crap. I cited the exact language used by your buddy. I cited the NFHS and NCAA rules that were pertinent to that language. He was wrong. You both are completely out of your area of expertise when it comes to basketball rules. That's painfully obvious. However, the both of you continue to argue something that you know nothing about, and isn't that big of a deal in the first place. I wouldn't dream of commenting on baseball rules, mechanics, procedures, etc. That's because I don't know them. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to stop you two.

And btw, I'll tell you the same thing that I told Windy. Resumes don't mean squat when you're wrong. And trying to bolster your own argument or opinion by demeaning the person that you're arguing with- whether it's me, Rut or some unknown Aussie that you got a problem with- doesn't give you very much credibility either.

I did not mention resumes, you did. Rut mentioned them too, He is always talking about all of the positions that he holds.

All Windy pointed out was that a call got changed in a real game at a high level. When you read all of the BS, fire and smoke, that's all he said. Somehow a call got changed. We don't need to be basketball officials to understand that a call got changed after two officials confered.

Whether it was illegal or legal, we don't know, but it got changed. To the laymen, it looks like one official overruled another. In baseball and I suspect basketball, perception is reality.

And by the way, when it comes to rules, baseball is the same as basketball. One umpire cannot overrule the other. But to the fans in the stands, we see it happen more and more. How can that be occurring when it is against the rules. Windy is pointing out hypocisy. The rules say one thing, but another thing occurs.

And finally, your cut and paste tactics are unethical and misleading. I call people liars who regularly engage in misleading activities. It was a classic presentation technique of the man from down under and I included the bit about sheep because I knew that it infuriated him. I was humoring the objects of his many distortions who might be reading this. I really have no idea what he did in the privacy of his own barn on a sheep station.

I am headed home for the evening and I don't post at night or on weekends so you will have the last word. This is the latest that I have stayed at work in months.

Peter

Whether it was illegal or legal, we don't know, but it got changed. To the laymen, it looks like one official overruled another.

And by the way, when it comes to rules, baseball is the same as basketball. One umpire cannot overrule the other. thing occurs.

And finally, your cut and paste tactics are unethical and misleading. I call people liars who regularly engage in misleading activities.

[/B][/QUOTE]Well, Peter, maybe you can please explain to me how my cut-and paste tactics can be unethical and misleading if I am directly quoting someone else's words completely verbatim, and not taking them out of context. That confuses the hell outa me, to be quite honest.I didn't make the statements; I just commented on them. And I'm not sure how my quoting someone else to the letter could end up making me a "liar" somehow. Could it possibly be that I'm a "liar" because I happened to disagree with you and Windy? Btw, I've already given you my opinion of the name-calling tactics that you both use, so there's no need to repeat them.

Just a coupla points on your musings above, while trying to keep away from flames:
1) You certainly got the "layman" part correct. Layman shouldn't insist that they are right and someone else is wrong when they don't know squat about the rules that they are commenting on. That's what fans do. If a supposedly highly-trained official in another sport wants to do that, hey, he should expect to be corrected when he is wrong. That's why I lurk over here, but never try to comment on the different baseball rulesets. To do so would just highlight my own ignorance of those rules.
2) Your second point on overruling was the exact same point that I was trying to make to DG- way back when. I was just pointing out that basketball officials cannot overrule one another, contrary to what DG was intimating. Well, that's when ol' Windy decided to straighten me out. Unfortunately, Windy did not and does not have a rules basis available that will contradict anything that I have said to date.

Have a good evening.

JR is saying that one official isn't allowed to overrule another -- it's against the rules of basketball. OK, I can accept that. You could fit my knowledge of basketball rules on a very small card.

Windy is saying that in an NCAA game, one ref overturned the ruling of another. I have no reason to doubt that fact either.

Even considering that it isn't allowed, it may have happened. California law (the rules) says I can't drive faster than 65 mph on the freeway, but I still do it.

People sometimes make mistakes and do things they aren't supposed to do. They don't always get caught by anyone who can provide correction or punishment. Is it inconceivable that this may have happened in this occurance?

So why has this turned into a brawl? It's tiresome. It distracts from the purpose of this board. There's nothing of value being said here.

Since the topic has severely deviated from the original question, perhaps a moderator could close this thread off?

And since some here seem to want to argue ad naseum, perhaps a moderator could create a new forum to give people a place for name-calling and pointless bickering?

interesting...
 

I have watched this thread develop and this is what I have deducted...

1) In basketball (of which I know SQUAT) a referee CAN NEVER overrule another referee.
2) In baseball an umpire can never overrule another umpire.
3) In both sports, the big dog will apply pressure to a mistaken official in order to get the call correct.
4) 4 officials, who claim to have more experience than as sports officials than I can fathom, are calling names and arguing like a bunch of 14 year old girls.

You guys all are talking in circles and saying the same thing.

I like needling people just as much as the next guy, but geez isn't this horse about turned into a bloody hole 15 feet deep?

Actually Peter, there are only a very small percentage of people the resume of Windy in our area. There are only a small percentage that would be an UMPS member. Believe it or not, there are people that have ideas to exactly who he is. I would not know either way, because I do not care about baseball year round. I only know two umpires that have done D1 and that work some Minor League ball. After awhile, someone is going to figure them out. Or maybe he is just using the resume to hide behind his words. Who knows and who cares? My schedule will be the same no matter who he thinks he is.

Peace