advice on chirping

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Jeff, I posted before you.

How could I possibly have known that you were going to say what you did? Look at the timeline. Who's kidding who?

Call me crazy, but I did not read your post until I saw the response of LBUD. I am sure that will not be the last time that will ever happen.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
BTW, go to professional school, graduate, work a couple of years of Minor League baseball and then you can question my technique. The way I handle coaches was taught at Brinkman-Froemming for years. Tossing a coach in the dugout is bush. Baiting him by approaching his dugout is worse.

This is what I am talking about. I am not going to pro school. I am not going to pro school. I am not going to pro school (did I say I am not going to pro school ) I do not want to go to pro school. Pro schools are usually held in January and February, in the middle of the most important season to me. I am not going to pro school, so I really could give a damn what they teach. There are a lot of successful umpires that never go to pro schools. If you ask me, most that go to pro school do not learn so much about umpiring that gives them such an advantage when they come home. Some of the umpires I have seen go to pro school, cannot umpire a LL game without problems coming their way. It is also called "pro school," for a reason. It is for those that want to learn the game from a pro perspective. It is the very reason that many other sports officials do not attend camps that the NFL or the NBA hold. There is a different philosophy and unless you are wanting to progress to that level, the "pro school" is probably not your bag. So enough with the freakin pro school. This was not a minor league game. If it was, I am sorry. But someone trying to look for advice about chirping is probably not at the pro or major college level. But that is just a guess.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
"Big Dog" comments are just an extension of your mentality.
Work the games I do and you'll see that those of us that work there don't pick battles we can't win. Getting your first big game is easy, getting annual schedules is the true accomplishment. If you consider that arrogant, too bad. The advice I give is backed by more than a few years of calling high school baseball.

Then qualify your statements. I have no problem with you sharing your experiences at the "higher levels," but we are not talking about that kind of game. The focus is totally different at the pro level. And even if you say that is the way it is done, I can see you have not watched very many pro games on TV (that would be Major League Baseball). They dump guys all the time on the bench. They look at the bench all the time. Just watch Baseball Tonight for a week, you will see a ejection of a coach sitting on the bench. I have never seen what you suggest as happening. Of course I am not there and do not hear the words, but it is a rookie move to eject someone sitting on the bench?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
BTW, "The Stare" doesn't work past high school. It just indicates that you heard him and won't react. That we did learn in the Minors.

No, really? For one the coaches at the college level do not pull the same crap either. And if they do, they realize what is going to happen. HS and lower tend to get away with a lot of stuff and keep trying to push the envelope. It is that way at all sports. So what the hell is your point? I am so happy that you have reached the Minors (which we all are not aspiring to do by the way)

Just keep posting. Your boy is not here to support you here.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Glad you like my advice

I wish I'd have gotten "The Stare"

Oh no,no no! I really like your advice-especially from door #3. Yup. Toss the first person that makes a second comment of any type. That should take care of all the coaches who like to "work" umpires, shouldn't it? Or maybe the best way might be door #2 instead, where you call time the very first time it happens and warn the coach. Of course, I am taking for granted that if the coach doesn't wanna listen to that very first warning, you're gonna haveta dump him then. Correct? And door #1, am I correct in thinking that you're also gonna unload the coach if he ignores the "stare" that you use after the coach chirps "the first or second time", and continues his chirping?

Great advice. I'd personally recommend it to ALL of the basketball officials I know. They can adapt it to the coaches in that sport who like to "work" officials.

[Kaliix]

To: Jurassic Referee

Cool!

[wobster]

My question is this - How do I (or the poster) know who to listen to? We have 2 umpires that are arguing back and forth, and both make good points - but which is more right?

Rutledge says it is sometimes necessary to dump a guy from the bench if he doesn't respond to the stare or the catcher telling him your thoughts. I agree with that, though I have never had to dump anyone, yet.

WindyCityBlue says it looks unprofessional to dump a coach that is on the bench, or to call time to warn him. I agree with that too.

What other options do we have? We can look unprofessional and dump a coach on the bench or look unprofessional and dump a guy who is walking by and not talking to you. Either way, you lose. Dumping somebody unless they are in your face screaming and kicking dirt on your shoes is probably going to make you look at least a little unprofessional because you (or I) couldn't control the situation.

I would think for the people in lower level that dumping a guy walking to the coach's box not talking to you would look even more unprofessional. I do not know about college, minors or even majors. I have not been to any clinics, yet, so I don't know if that is recommended or not. I will take your word that it is. But do you agree that walking up to a coach, in between innings, initiating contact and dumping him looks more unprofessional than dumping a guy yelling from the dugout?

I do not know, I am trying to get some advice because I do not know the right answer. I am trying to look at it as unbiased as I can. Let me know what you guys think.

[DG]

In order:

1) Ignore the bench until the chirping gets excessive, or irritating, whichever comes first.
2) A long Stare into the dugout after 1) is good and may be enough to get it stopped.
3) If after delivering the Stare, another chirp comes up, then a warning is appropriate. Do the warning, emphatically, and then take the time to write it down on whatever game sheet you are keeping. Look into the dugout one last time after writing it down before returning to the plate.
4) If it happens again, dump somebody, even if they are in the dugout. 3 strikes and you are out. the stare is one, the warning is another...

I had a DH 2 weeks ago in an adult league. I was on bases for first game and my partner allowed quite a bit of chirping in the first game. In the second game I am PU and the chirping started almost immediately. I ignored in the first onning and stared and warned in the second inning and did not hear another chirp the rest of the game. The warning was emphatic, I made eye contact with every player on the bench and the coach. It was not to be mis-understood.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by wobster
My question is this - How do I (or the poster) know who to listen to? We have 2 umpires that are arguing back and forth, and both make good points - but which is more right?

Rutledge says it is sometimes necessary to dump a guy from the bench if he doesn't respond to the stare or the catcher telling him your thoughts. I agree with that, though I have never had to dump anyone, yet.

WindyCityBlue says it looks unprofessional to dump a coach that is on the bench, or to call time to warn him. I agree with that too.

Wobster;

The first piece of advice that I can give you is to ignore Rut. If two umpires are arguing and one of them is Rut, then the other umpire is the one that's right. I've watched Rut for almost 4 years, enough said.

You might want to take a holistic approach to your game. By that I mean that instead of seeing each game all by itself, consider establishing a reputation that will see you from one game to the next. When I dump someone, I am doing it not only for that game but for games in the future.

When you dump a lot of coaches and players, word gets around and people leave you alone. You probably still suck, but now the rats learn to live with it. When people leave you alone, you feel good about yourself and probably do a better job. Gradually you improve. However, most people can never improve at something if those around them are whining, screaming, or complaining. It's too distracting.

You mentioned that you have never dumped anyone. It's time to lose your virginity. Make it a point to dump someone within the next two games. Ejections are a skill that requires practice.

In 1995, my career was stalled and I was having no fun at games because of all the low-level BS going on all around me. Nothing real bad was happening, just chirping, snide comments, and other mild unpleasantries. In 1996 I went to pro school and after that I decided to see how many people I could throw out in a season. I practiced dramatic ejections, quiet ejections without a word, and all manner of ejections in between. I selected targets early in the game and went after these guys. Sometimes I attempted to fire them up so that I could eject them and other times I lay in the weeds. I did not care about all of the complaints rolling in to the assignor; I was have the time of my life.

I had over 30 ejections in 110 games. I behaved myself at real good games or games with laid back coaches. No sense starting trouble when none is brewing. But if any trouble started brewing, I brought it rapidly to a boil. There was little preventative officiating that year. Prior to this, I had a sense of failure at an ejection. Now it was a matter of success. This positive attitude is critical to maintaining your composure under pressure.

One thing that I quickly discovered was that you got a lot more mileage out of an ejection in the second inning than one in the seventh. That way, you don't have to put up with the little b@stards for all those innings. It's a lesson that proved invaluable.

By the end of the season, everyone left me alone. Instead, I had to concentrate on mechanics and balls and strikes. But to this day when I step on a baseball field and minor BS starts happening in the first inning, I resurrect my Mr Hyde personality from the past and dump 'em quick. They are always very surprised but it has the effect of making the last 7 or 8 innings go pleasantly.

For now, don't worry about looking unprofessional. That will come in time. All you need to worry about is getting started.

When my thirteen year old soon started umpiring at the same time, he fell in love with ejections. Those adults are shocked when a pre adolescent teen runs them out of a game. With the reputation that he garnered, his games went smoothly and he was doing Legion ball at age 17. He was able to rapidly improve because he was not dealing with all manner of BS.

He is 22 now and works just a couple games a year with me. We have a father's day ritual where we do a Legion game together. This Sunday, he has the plate. He is looking forward to the ejection, if possible.

The head assignor and I have discovered that if an umpire is a pussy, he can never get good or grow any gonads. However, if he is a well developed red-a$$, we can tone him down some. So---develop your reda$$.

Peter

[DG]

The first time you hear "where was that pitch?" dump somebody, even if you don't know who said it. Dump the coach, the bat boy or the nearest player (the catcher), or get the hot dog vendor. Just get somebody. Then you will have all the respect you need to continue the game without argument, at least from one half of the field. If someone from the other side argues about anything, get somebody (the hot dog vendor may already be gone). Geez... some advice ain't worth having.

[wobster]

I am not going to look for trouble, but when I hear the minor BS tomorrow, I will dump someone, just for the hell of it. I will see how it works and see if the BS calms down.

On a related note, somewhat, one of the umpires I try not to work with had to eject someone wednesday, and he called me to take his assignment for the same coach next wednesday, because he thinks the coach will have it out for him. I told him he should do the game and dump him again....he is afraid of the guy. Any advice for him other than to grow gonads?

Thanks HHH.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by wobster
On a related note, somewhat, one of the umpires I try not to work with had to eject someone wednesday, and he called me to take his assignment for the same coach next wednesday, because he thinks the coach will have it out for him. I told him he should do the game and dump him again....he is afraid of the guy. Any advice for him other than to grow gonads?

Thanks HHH.

Wobster;

It is generally a poor idea to go back to a team where you have recently dumped somebody. If you have problems again, it looks like a personality problem instead of a coach with an attitude problem. That hurts your reputation.

It's better to go somewhere new and dump THAT guy, if and when he acts up. It's the reda$$ reputation that you are looking for, NOT a personal list of enemies. Give your umpire compatriot that advice.

Make sure, if at all reasonably possible, that you dump the same coach that the other umpire dumped when you do the game that you took from him. The umpire will be indebted to you. It will make the coach look like he has a problem with authority, rather than a problem with a specific umpire. Any league president worth a nickel, takes notice of a coach that gets dumped by two different umpires in a short period of time.

Start making a list of coaches and players that other umpires have dumped. You don't want to get into a habit of ejecting too many people that no one has ejected before. OTOH, if you eject people that others have had problems with, it looks like you are only doing your job. You get a reda$$ reputation with none of the bad side effects.

I recall a player that I started umpiring when he was 12 years old. He developed into a serious head case on the field. Before he was 15, he had put three players in the hospital by engaging in malicious contact. Umpires warned him and gave him all sorts of leeway but rarely ejected him. He waited for a warning as his first free shot.

Not me. I dumped him at every opportunity. He was free ejection. No matter how inconsequential his actions, it was assumed that I was right because of his fearsome reputation.

Two years ago as an Industrial League player, (adult league) this head case came after an umpire with a baseball bat. A real judge in robes finally put an end to his baseball career. The umpires, leagues, and coaches never had the stones to do it.

Peter

[tornado]

HHH

My apologies...

I used to think that you were just an a**hole.

After dealing with coaches of travel teams that argue any close call and then seem to incite their players & fans against me through their actions & the game just turns into a sh**house....

Well, I see your point. YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Even if you're friendly for 4-5-6 innings or games, they leap on you like a vampire in heat for one "blown" call!

I'll be looking for an ejection soon!

tornado

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by wobster


Rutledge says it is sometimes necessary to dump a guy from the bench if he doesn't respond to the stare or the catcher telling him your thoughts. I agree with that, though I have never had to dump anyone, yet.

That is not what I have said. I would just ignore a coach that is running his mouth from the bench. I do not answer questions from coaches sitting on the bench as a general rule. And I surely do not try to listen to what they have to say in those positions. If they have something to say, they can come and say something directly. And we know that is not happening on balls and strikes.

Peace

[wobster]

HHH, this umpire does all town league games for a town, so he cannot avoid this coach, as he is the home coach from his town. I am working the game wednesday, and I will look for a reason to dump him.

[wobster]

Rut, I take advice from all. I do not discount anyones thoughts. I am full of crap 50 percent of the time, but the other 50 I am right on. You guys are probably 99% right and 1% crap. I'll take my chances that what you are all telling me is not that 1%.

I do have great respect for what you, windycity, and everyone else does at that level. I hope to be there someday. Right now I am just at the small time doing LL and trying to get some advice. It is a little frustrating when umpires constantly argue with each other and cloud the facts. It makes it harder for us little guys to learn.

I am attending a clinic next month in texas with carl, I hope to learn a lot there.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by wobster
Rut, I take advice from all. I do not discount anyones thoughts. I am full of crap 50 percent of the time, but the other 50 I am right on. You guys are probably 99% right and 1% crap. I'll take my chances that what you are all telling me is not that 1%.

And that is what you should do anyway. I would even tell you to take what you like, throw out what you do not like. Not everything someone tells you is going to apply to you personally. I know if I listen to HHH personally, I would never have achieved the things I have at this point in my career. So you have to have wisdom to know what works for you.

Originally posted by wobster
I do have great respect for what you, windycity, and everyone else does at that level. I hope to be there someday. Right now I am just at the small time doing LL and trying to get some advice. It is a little frustrating when umpires constantly argue with each other and cloud the facts. It makes it harder for us little guys to learn.

Unlike those others, there is nothing wrong with doing LL. That is where many got their start and learned the basics of the game. But I am sure that making the jump to HS would not be too much of a stretch. They throw the ball a little harder, the bases are longer and despite what many will say here, it is real baseball. If it was not, most Major League players would have never started there.

Originally posted by wobster
I am attending a clinic next month in texas with carl, I hope to learn a lot there.

Have fun.

Peace

[David B]

Originally posted by JRutledge

That is not what I have said. I would just ignore a coach that is running his mouth from the bench. I do not answer questions from coaches sitting on the bench as a general rule. And I surely do not try to listen to what they have to say in those positions. If they have something to say, they can come and say something directly. And we know that is not happening on balls and strikes.

Peace

MLB must have changed their stances in their pro schools since Bobby Cox was ejected the other night while sitting in the dugout.

Umpire looked at him on pitch before, and then made a "huge" ejection following the next pitch. If was really funny looking since he did it as part of his strike/ball call.

Of course I think MLB's umpires eject guys now just to add a little excitement to the games. (kind of like hockey fights)

Thanks
David