Balks and hit by batted ball...

[rmstone]

Two questions really. All the umpires in our league have been arguing over these for some time.

1. If you have a pitcher in the stretch with his pivot foot on the rubber and his free foot in front, ball in hand, hands at his sides: can he step FORWARD off the mound to disengage or is this a balk? I can't find anything in the rulebook that says what a pitcher can't do before actually coming set. Also if this is a balk and he must step off the back then is a pitcher kicking the dirt out in front of the rubber balking because he is engaging and disengaging?

2. If a runner is hit by a batted ball prior to passing an infielder hes out. But, does the pitcher count as an infielder since the rulebook says he becomes one after releasing. We assume this doesn't include the pitcher or there would never be an out by batted ball since all balls pass the pitcher before reaching a runner, we just can't back up our argument with anything in the rulebook.

Your thoughts?
Thanks,
-Randy

[nickrego]

1a. The pitcher must step backwards off the rubber with his pivot foot or it is a balk. And no, we don't consider them to be engaging and disengaging the rubber while kicking out dirt. They may stop and throw to a base as long as they gain direction and distance towards that base. And if they over throw to DBT, it is a two base award.

2. The pitcher does not count as a fielder for this instance. He also does not count as a fielder for the ball hitting an umpire prior to passing a fielder.

[rmstone]

yeah but where are these in the rulebook?

1. The book says that in the SET position you must step off backwards... YET it defines the set position as holding the ball with both hands in front of his body, which isn't the case here because he hands are at his side. It does not refer to anything you can't do before actually being SET that I can find.

2. Where is this in the rulebook? Is it just something thats missing from the book and its assumed or what?

[LDUB]

1. Check out OBR 8.01 (A) (3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first. He may not go into a set or stretch position if he does it is a balk.

2. OBR 7.09

It is interference by a batter or a runner when:
(m) A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference. PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

[rmstone]

1. Yes thats the section on the windup... So the two problems with that are:

a. Hes not in a windup, hes in the stretch. That rule can't apply because "He may not go into a set or stretch position if he does it is a balk." And from the position that I defined HE CAN go into a set position, in fact its his only option.

b. If you read up higher it says: "If a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in a windup position. From this position he may: ..." - He's not holding the ball with boths hands thus this doesn't apply.

2. Ok, as I read it now it makes sense... since the pitcher has no play on it the ball isn't going through or by him. Also you can assume on 99% of these plays that anything that goes BY the pitcher can be played by another infielder. Thanks for clearing that one up!

[Rich]

There is no "stretch position." There is a set position and a windup position. In the set position, the pitcher can take a preliminary motion known as the "stretch." Once engaged, the pitcher can only disengage legally by stepping back with the pivot foot -- in either position.

[rmstone]

Correct, but hes NOT IN either position so how can he balk? I know it seems like I'm trying to be a pain here but the book really doesn't explain this well. He's not making a "motion" so its not the stretch (thus not the set position), and hes not in the windup or the set position either because both require him to hold the ball with both hands.

[rmstone]

Let me give another example. The pitcher stands in the above position (which I mistakenly called the "stretch" but the stretch is really the motion) with one foot on the rubber, ball in his hand, hands at his side. If he turns his shoulder to first, its not a balk right? Now NO WHERE in the rulebook does it say that. It simply says in the SET POSITION he can't do that, yet he can do that here so he's not in the set position. This is just one example of how a pitcher in the said position is exempt from balking.

Any thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rmstone
Let me give another example. The pitcher stands in the above position (which I mistakenly called the "stretch" but the stretch is really the motion) with one foot on the rubber, ball in his hand, hands at his side. If he turns his shoulder to first, its not a balk right? Now NO WHERE in the rulebook does it say that. It simply says in the SET POSITION he can't do that, yet he can do that here so he's not in the set position. This is just one example of how a pitcher in the said position is exempt from balking.

Any thoughts?

1) No where in OBR does "tunrning the shoulders" equal a balk. It's a balk to "feint to first" -- whether in the set or the "stretch".

2) All the balk rules apply when the pitcher intentionally contacts the rubber (and you won't find that phrasing under OBR either). You can find lots of examples where the rule book taken too literally would result in a game completely unlike baseball.

[Gee]

When the pitcher has his pivot foot on the rubber,

(Remember, once the pitcher puts his pivot foot on the rubber he is now operating under the pitching rules and in order to disengage he must step back with his pivot foot as described under OBR 8.01(e).)

his free foot in front of the rubber and his hands at his side, he is in 'SET STANCE'. From that position he may stretch and come to the 'SET' position.

Most umpires give the pitcher a little more lee way when they are in set stance than they do when their in set, for obvious reasons.

Under OBR, as opposed to FED, a pitcher when in 'set stance' is allowed to turn his shoulder to first base and it is not considered a feint and a balk. Once the pitcher gets in a 'set' position the shoulder turn COULD be considered a feint and a balk depending on the speed of the turn and the umpire's judgment. G.

[rmstone]

I see where your comming from, so it's really just implied.

But I would expect it to be one way or the other... either all balks should apply pre-stretch or none of them should.

But all in all its ENTIRELY up to the umpire and whether or not they ASSUME from the book that a pre-stretch is a pitching position and balks apply.

Seems like the OBR needs to be updated with some correct wording on this stuff. In a game so technical the idea of "umpires give more lee way" doesn't really cut it. It should be a clear cut balk or not a balk.

If you ask me though I still wouldn't call it a balk. The rulebook doesn't say he can't do it from that position thus its not a balk... quite a perplexing problem...

[DG]

Originally posted by rmstone
Two questions really. All the umpires in our league have been arguing over these for some time.

1. If you have a pitcher in the stretch with his pivot foot on the rubber and his free foot in front, ball in hand, hands at his sides: can he step FORWARD off the mound to disengage or is this a balk? I can't find anything in the rulebook that says what a pitcher can't do before actually coming set. Also if this is a balk and he must step off the back then is a pitcher kicking the dirt out in front of the rubber balking because he is engaging and disengaging?

2. If a runner is hit by a batted ball prior to passing an infielder hes out. But, does the pitcher count as an infielder since the rulebook says he becomes one after releasing. We assume this doesn't include the pitcher or there would never be an out by batted ball since all balls pass the pitcher before reaching a runner, we just can't back up our argument with anything in the rulebook.

Your thoughts?
Thanks,
-Randy

1) I think it would depend on his purpose. If he is stepping off the front (with both hands at his side) to talk to the cathcer then no balk. If he is stepping off the front to throw home for a runner stealing, then balk. Did he gain an adantage or trick a runner"? If yes, balk, if no, no balk. This could go into the "highly technical balk" category.
2) 5.09f covers the play in question. The pitcher counts as an infielder. Example, if he can field the ball, but it goes between his legs and hits a runner with SS getting ready to field the ball, why would we treat this any different that going through the 3B legs and hitting the runner with SS getting ready to field the ball? Only one infielder is protected on this play. If pitcher can't reach the ball in play then he is not the one protected, and therefore the ball going by him is not relevant.

[rmstone]

Thanks, great answers!

1. In the situation in case his coach had yelled "stop" and he had just stepped forward, squared up and waited for the coach to come out. There was no advantage gained on any runner and he didn't attempt to pick anyone off...

2. Got ya!

[rmstone]

"Under OBR, as opposed to FED, a pitcher when in 'set stance' is allowed to turn his shoulder to first base and it is not considered a feint and a balk"

Correct! Because OBR doesn't SAY its a balk, so my original #1 question is not a balk because its in the same category, hes not set or windup thus it doesnt say its a balk...

[WindyCityBlue]

It seems like we are confusing set position with "coming set".

All of the answers are good, but to clarify - from the set position, he cannot step forward first with the foot that is engaged with the pitching plate.

If he does, it is a balk because he failed to deliver a pitch after having engaged the pitching plate and then stepping forward.

All balks are "technical" in nature. I still hear guys saying, "Balk, he stepped off with the wrong foot." No, he stepped off with the correct foot, he just didn't deliver a pitch. Sorry for being so "technical".

Balks are easy calls, if it fooled you - call it. We penalize those who cheat are stupid. most of the time they are both.