Cal Ripken Div: Special Base Running Rule

[wobster]

When I am umpiring, your team gets one warning for leaving early, and then they start getting outs. We used to have coaches like you that took advantage of the rules, but we had to implement this rule to take care of it. This type of coaching, if you want to call it that, would get you a reprimand by myself (I am on the board) and the league president. You would not be coaching next year. You are obviously teaching the kids that bending the rules and winning is more important than sportsmanship. You stated yourself that you send the kids early, knowingly BREAKING THE RULES.

Of course, that is just around here, in Indiana, where we try to teach the fundamentals of the game, not how to run up the score and see how much we can push the rules.

[MarionTiger]

Wobster said " When I am umpiring, your team gets one warning for leaving early, and then they start getting outs. We used to have coaches like you that took advantage of the rules, but we had to implement this rule to take care of it. This type of coaching, if you want to call it that, would get you a reprimand by myself (I am on the board) and the league president. You would not be coaching next year. You are obviously teaching the kids that bending the rules and winning is more important than sportsmanship. You stated yourself that you send the kids early, knowingly BREAKING THE RULES.

Of course, that is just around here, in Indiana, where we try to teach the fundamentals of the game, not how to run up the score and see how much we can push the rules."

Well, I certainly am glad I'm not in your league then, because you obviously don't use all of the facts before you start making your decisions. If you had read ALL of my posts, you would see that I am against this practice and was giving an example for illustration.

Secondly, had you read the rule, you would see that the runner indeed CAN leave the base early, but just has to suffer the possible consequences, which is not necessarily an out at all.

I am also a board member and have officiated for years myself. I also know you do not speak for the whole state of Indiana, and I'm sure they are glad of that.

I guess most folks skim my posts, assume I'm a coach going for the win at all costs and start ragging on me. I will not try to gain any advantage by abusing the absurdity this rule. In fact, I'm really trying to show how this rule does not apply to Machine Pitch, so nobody will try to do so. It happened last night, but I'm pretty sure (at least hope) it was inadvertant.

So can we go back to my original question? Does this rule make sense? Should it be applied to Machine Pitch?


[Edited by MarionTiger on Jun 8th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

[akalsey]

There are a number of problems with stealing as it relates to machine pitch or coach pitch. For example, when the catcher returns the ball, for the sake of moving the game along it is often returned to the adult who is pitching or running the machine. If that coach misses the ball, can the runners go? If hte machine (or coach) malfunctions and the pitch is wild, do the runners get to steal?

Unless the defensive players have some control over the ball at all times and have the opportunity to put out the runner who is attempting to steal, stealing probably shouldn't be allowed.

If the kids are playing machine pitch, they are likely at the level where they are playing baseball for the purpose of learning the game. I don't like the idea of stealing at that level in a player's development. The catchers can't catch well, they can't throw far enough, accurate enough, and fast enough to have a shot at getting an out, and hte second baseman probaby can't catch a short hop.

Are they learning anything by stealing? If stealing second is so easy it's almost automatic, why not just award second to any player who gets to first?

Players will learn more about the game from having to stay at first and learn about force outs, tagging up, and smart baserunning than they will from getting to second every time because the catcher can't throw the ball that far.

[wobster]

MarionTiger - I thought your post stating the sitch was something you said you did. I apologize.

Our machine league is no lead off/stealing until the ball is hit. I have never heard of a machine league allowing stealing, since most of the kids that age have a hard enough time getting the ball to the pitcher.

Here is how ours works:

Umpire pitches, and ball remains dead until ball is hit. After a hit, the runners may run until the kid playing pitcher has the ball in the infield grass and calls time. This is about the equivalent of a pitcher being on the rubber, for our purposes. Ball is dead until a batter hits the ball.

I do agree with you that the rule for Cal Ripken is absurd. If there is no real penalty imposed, I.E. an out, coaches could teach this way, which is exactly what I thought you were doing.

[MarionTiger]

akalsey, I tend to agree with you. I think pitching machine and stealing to not mix to begin with. Why our state has decided to make exception to that rule baffles me. Kids might learn more about sliding, tagging, etc., but with a "timeout" being called every time the lead runner is stopped and an "implied" play ball everytime the ball is pitched, it is very difficult for a runner to determine when the ball is live. I personally think there should be no stealing.

[MarionTiger]

Wobster..no problem.

I like your rule better. I'm hoping to have a pow wow with the head official tonight.

[bigwes68]

I agree that Cal Ripken rules on baserunning are a bit too vague. But it does clearly state in the "Suggested" Rules for Rookie League (7 & 8 year old machine pitch) that stealing is not allowed.

Of course, when it says "Suggested," local leagues tend to make up all their own rules. About three years ago, the local leagues had all played by the rules in the book all year long. Then, come tournament time, a rules sheet got passed around to all the coaches by the state commissioner that said that stealing was allowed. This pissed off all the coaches, because this now meant they had to put a good player at catcher (where during the regular season they can pretty much "hide" a bad player).

The instance that is not specifically addressed in the rule book that keeps everyone here in a perpetual argument: When does the runner have to stay on the base?

This is what they have come up with in my league: They draw a big circle around the pitching machine, and there is a player playing the position of pitcher, although the umpire is feeding the machine. When the "pitcher" has possession of the ball inside the circle, the ball is immediately dead. If a runner is less than halfway to the next base, he has to return. If he is more than halfway to the next base, he is allowed to advance.

I don't like it, but it's at least a way to keep rabid, rules-ignorant parents from literally jumping out on the field. And it keeps from having a runner score on literally every hit because coaches simply tell their fielders to throw the ball to the pitcher and not try to get the runner out.

Of course, the main problem is that they let baseball at this level be competitive, and that they actually pick All-Star teams for tournament competition. I don't think there should be all-star teams until the kids are actually pitching.

Babe Ruth League needs to revamp their entire rule book and print some VERY specific rules about Rookie League instead of the ambiguous stuff they put in there now.

[wobster]

BigWes- that is a good idea with the circle. I will bring that up at our next board meeting. We have a few teams that make up their own rules of when the ball is dead - I.E. inside the baselines instead of inside the grass as the rules state.

[Edited by wobster on Jun 14th, 2004 at 03:27 PM]

[MarionTiger]

Originally posted by bigwes68
I agree that Cal Ripken rules on baserunning are a bit too vague. But it does clearly state in the "Suggested" Rules for Rookie League (7 & 8 year old machine pitch) that stealing is not allowed.

Of course, when it says "Suggested," local leagues tend to make up all their own rules. About three years ago, the local leagues had all played by the rules in the book all year long. Then, come tournament time, a rules sheet got passed around to all the coaches by the state commissioner that said that stealing was allowed. This pissed off all the coaches, because this now meant they had to put a good player at catcher (where during the regular season they can pretty much "hide" a bad player).

The instance that is not specifically addressed in the rule book that keeps everyone here in a perpetual argument: When does the runner have to stay on the base?

This is what they have come up with in my league: They draw a big circle around the pitching machine, and there is a player playing the position of pitcher, although the umpire is feeding the machine. When the "pitcher" has possession of the ball inside the circle, the ball is immediately dead. If a runner is less than halfway to the next base, he has to return. If he is more than halfway to the next base, he is allowed to advance.

I don't like it, but it's at least a way to keep rabid, rules-ignorant parents from literally jumping out on the field. And it keeps from having a runner score on literally every hit because coaches simply tell their fielders to throw the ball to the pitcher and not try to get the runner out.

Of course, the main problem is that they let baseball at this level be competitive, and that they actually pick All-Star teams for tournament competition. I don't think there should be all-star teams until the kids are actually pitching.

Babe Ruth League needs to revamp their entire rule book and print some VERY specific rules about Rookie League instead of the ambiguous stuff they put in there now.

BigWes, I don't like the pitcher in the circle either. I mean, what is that really teaching these kids? We've played in a lot of tournaments where that is the case. Then we've played in tournaments where there is no circle around the pitcher, but teams that are used to it, throw it to the pitcher anyway. Of course, the runners continue to advance.

I think I understand what you are saying about not allowing All-Stars at Rookie age, but that is the only place where kids that are putting out a lot of effort can play with similar kids. My league team was not much more than baby-sitting this year. Several of them told me from day one that they did not want to play baseball this year. My all-star team members, however, are so happy to be together because they all want to play hard with other kids doing the same. It is really like two seasons.

Perhaps Babe Ruth is vague on their rules because, as they mention, this is supposed to be developmental baseball for the betterment of the young athletes. That is true, but without solid rules, just what are they developing? There is more to baseball at 7 and 8 than just hitting, fielding and throwing. At least there is for many.

[DG]

I think you need a circle, and you need a rule that says you have to stop the advance of the lead runner. Then get the ball inside the circle and any runners, who are not the lead runner, who have not made it to halfway the next base must go back. If the lead runner has stopped, and you get the ball in the circle then runners who have not made it halfway go back. If you don't have to stop the lead runner then the defensive strategy becomes "get the ball in the circle" which is not teaching the kids the game.