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Mon Jun 07, 2004, 11:44pm
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Hello all.
Question: Can the Special Base Running Rule be applied to Rookie league Machine Pitch? I don't see how it can since the opening sentance starts like, "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitchers plate..." That never happens in any MP games I've even seen. I think this Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken rule only applies to age groups that have pitchers. I think that the rule book does not even mention machine pitch in this rule because Cal Ripken rules have already eliminated stealing. Seems obvious to me. My local league allows stealing after the pitch crosses the plate, however, tonight they tried to enforce this rule. Page 11 of Babe Ruth rulebook. It's a long rule...can repost with it if you would like to review. How in the world can you enforce this rule when the pitcher rarely has control of the ball AND there is no pitching rubber? Could any of you authoritatively support or contend with me on this local ruling? Anyone have an idea where I can get a ruling that will have some weight to take back to this group? Thanks in advance, Frustrated in Marion 
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 12:16am
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CAL RIPKEN BASEBALL DIVISION SPECIAL BASE RUNNING RULE
Rule: When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter. The violation by one runner shall affect all other runners. a) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter does not hit the ball, the runner is permitted to continue. If a play is made on the runner and the runner is out, the out stands. If said runner reaches safely the base to which he is advancing, that runner must be returned to the base occupied before the pitch was made, and no out results. b) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter hits the ball, the base runner or runners are permitted to continue. If a play is made and the runner or runners are put out, the out or outs will stand. If not put out, the runner or runners must return to the original base or bases or to the unoccupied base nearest the one left. In no event shall the batter advance beyond first base on a single or error, second base on a double or third base on a triple. The umpire-in-chief shall determine the base value of the hit ball. c) When any base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter bunts or hits a ball within the infield, no run shall be allowed to score. If three runners were on the bases and the batter reaches first base safely, each runner shall advance to the base beyond the one they occupied at the start of the play except the runner who occupied third base, which runner shall be removed from the base without a run being scored. NOTE: See exception following this rule. NOTE: When there is a base running violation, the umpire should signal such infraction by dropping a flag to the ground. EXCEPTION: If at the conclusion of the play there is an open base paragraphs (a) and (b) will apply.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 12:16am
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In a pitching machine league, the pitching machine should be treated as the pitcher, since it is. Therefore, runners should maintain contact with their base until the pitch reaches the plate. However, IMO, runners should not be allowed to steal in machine pitch ball. Most machine pitch ball is on a time limit and stealing just takes away from hitting and fielding, which are much more important skills to learn.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 12:26am
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I agree that in essence it is the pitcher, but when does it "have possesion of the ball." How can it hold a runner?
I can take or leave the stealing, but if you take the pitcher out of the game, how can you allow any kind of leading off?
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 12:37am
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How about this scenario:
My best hitter is up. He hits to the outfield most every time. I have a runner on first. Before the umpire puts the ball in the machine, I have my runner run to second and then on to third. As long as my batter gets the ball out of the infield the runner at third stays or at worst goes back to second. If the batter misses, the runner has to go back to first. If the batter gets an infield single, then I just hold my runner at third. I'm on a small field, there are no triples. This takes the double play away. This makes no sense to me. I cannot see why anyone would apply this rule to machine pitch that allows stealing.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 07:06am
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 07:20am
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You should be happy if they learn to field , hit, and run the bases at this level. Teach them the fundamentals of the game and how to enjoy it. Leave the technical bullcrap for later levels of baseball. I can't see why I have to pay exhuberent prices for gas, but I do.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 07:39am
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Jicecone...you're right. Kids at this level couldn't care less if they win or lose, and they should not be worried about any silly rules that make no sense. When they ask me why little johnny for the other team can leave the base early and we can't. I'll tell them just to be happy they live in a free country and to go enjoy a coke and some nachos.
Seriously, J, that particular piece of my posts on this subject was to illustrate how needless this rule is. I would not try to do this. We did, however, have a game last night where a kid was literally going halfway to third before the ball was even put in the machine. He was a poor baserunner, and this could have given him an advantage avoiding the force out. My point, and main question is, this rule should not apply to machine pitch, because Cal Ripken rules already state there is no stealing in machine pitch. My league decided to allow stealing, but still tries to enforce this rule, which I think is crazy. [Edited by MarionTiger on Jun 8th, 2004 at 09:07 AM]
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:06am
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:14am
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:17am
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Bob, yes, the umpire feeds the machine. There is no pitching rubber, however. If Cal Ripken rules wanted the umpire to be considered the pitcher in this rule, then why don't they say so? I think they don't because they've already stated that there is no stealing in machine pitch. If there is no stealing, then the kid would not be taking off for the next base before the pitch anyway, would he? Or, is the intention of this rule that you can get a huge lead (since there is no pitcher to keep them in check) and take the risk that you will limit your progress on a extra base hit? If that is the case, then why? Why would you add such a rule? Simply to make things more confusing? Shouldn't they just not be able to leave the base until the ball crosses the plate and that's it? At least until they are playing kid pitch, where this is all a different story?
Also, unless the league has already stated so in their exceptions, then this rule should be interpreted as is, right? As is, the pitcher never has the ball on the rubber.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:25am
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Jicecone, you've got me all wrong. I'm actually the coach that the parents fuss at for not arguing with the ump more. I'm actually the coach that comes back to the umpire AFTER the game with the rule book and show them what I'm talking about. That's the whole problem here. These guys know I'm usually right because I show them. I do not want to lose credibility on this because they are misinterpreting this rule in this situation. I, unlike many in this league, have a very good relationship with our umpires. I respect them, and I'm pretty sure they respect me. They know it's never personal, and I expect the same from them. We're always friends after the game. I tell my players and parents that it's the errors, bad throws and poor base running that loses games not "bad calls". Now if it is a close game and my kids are playing their hearts out and non-judgement call is made in error...I'm gonna call time and we're going to talk about it.
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:38am
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I've been there , done that. It is just not as important as developing a love for the game. Making sure that little Johnny wants to come back and play again next season and does'nt lose interest at 10. I never kept a book or score at that level because it JUST WAS NOT IMPORTANT WHO WON. IT JUST DIDN"T MATTER! Don't be ashamed of it, you are who you are. It Does matter to you. Good Luck
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Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:49am
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Jicecone, fair enough.
Yes, it does matter to me if we win or lose. But it matters a great deal more if we tried hard and showed good sportsmanship. Losing a game and dealing with adversity in sports is its best lesson to me. Just like sports, life isn't always fair. The point is to make it as fair as possible, but it just isn't fair. Take your lumps and move on. Tomorrow is a new day. You can't learn that if you never win or lose. How do you teach humility when you win, and pride in your efforts if you lose if you don't experience an outcome. Not keeping score enforces that nothing matters, and that's just not reality. Thanks for responding to my original post (seriously), and good luck to you too.
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