oversliding second

[Baseball_North]

Thank you, that is what I was trying to get at.

Just because R1 "takes out" the player ON PURPOSE, doesn't make it illegal. That's baseball. As long as he doesn't go in spikes-up or can't touch the base, then it's a good, clean baseball play.

Don't be afraid to see a little contact out there on the diamond.....

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

This is complete crap. You cannot rely on 9.01(c) here. Could he reach the bag with a hand or foot? If yes, then it's not interference unless there is a FPSR in place and there's a violation of that.

If not, the runner can "deliberately" break up a double play. What do you think that slide is for, anyway? If the runner slides past the base such that he can't reach it with a hand or foot, then call the interference. If not, don't insert yourself in the game because you want to be the protector of the players. This ain't chess.

--Rich

Are you actually reading what I write or just firing off at the mouth, like so many coaches? You say "if the runner slides past the base such that he can't reach it with a hand or foot, then call the interference". I say "if sliding off the bag, such that it can't be reached by hand or foot, to break up a double play is an illegal slide, then surely sliding past the bag, so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is also". Now you tell me what's the difference and why this is complete crap? Also tell me where in the book sliding past the base so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is interference and I will not have to apply common sense, ie 9.01(c). By the way, this is Babe Ruth question, so when does FPSR apply in Babe Ruth?

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG

Are you actually reading what I write or just firing off at the mouth, like so many coaches? You say "if the runner slides past the base such that he can't reach it with a hand or foot, then call the interference". I say "if sliding off the bag, such that it can't be reached by hand or foot, to break up a double play is an illegal slide, then surely sliding past the bag, so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is also". Now you tell me what's the difference and why this is complete crap? Also tell me where in the book sliding past the base so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is interference and I will not have to apply common sense, ie 9.01(c). By the way, this is Babe Ruth question, so when does FPSR apply in Babe Ruth?

It doesn't. Babe Ruth plays OBR for the most part.

And you are mistaken -- not only did I read your post carefully, I told you why 9.01(c) doesn't apply. You cannot pull out 9.01(c) whenever you want -- it only covers the rare situation that is not specifically covered in the rules. The interference that you are talking about is covered explicitly in the case notes in 6.05(m) and clarified in the NAPBL/PBUC manual to mean "reach with a hand or foot."

But keep in mind that a legal slide can be a deliberate attempt to take out a fielder and the collision can be pretty violent. Fielders should be aware of this and turn the pivot in a way that avoids this contact.

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

It doesn't. Babe Ruth plays OBR for the most part.

And you are mistaken -- not only did I read your post carefully, I told you why 9.01(c) doesn't apply. You cannot pull out 9.01(c) whenever you want -- it only covers the rare situation that is not specifically covered in the rules. The interference that you are talking about is covered explicitly in the case notes in 6.05(m) and clarified in the NAPBL/PBUC manual to mean "reach with a hand or foot."

But keep in mind that a legal slide can be a deliberate attempt to take out a fielder and the collision can be pretty violent. Fielders should be aware of this and turn the pivot in a way that avoids this contact.

IMO, 6.0(m) case notes do not apply because the runner is not "leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base", ie he has passed the base, maybe even made contact with it on his mission to disrupt the play. This sounds like a situation where the runner slides 6 feet away from the bag to take out a fielder. In my 2004 version of the PBUC manual, section 4.3, which is titled "Willful and and Deliberate Interference" there is a quote "in sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot". None of the examples provided involve sliding past the bag to break up a DP, perhaps because that would not be "sliding to a base", it would be "sliding beyond the base". Most folks have access to 6.05(m) because it's in the rule book. but how many have a copy of PBUC, from where we read the hand and foot reference? And even after reading we don't have a clear ruling on sliding past the bag. I submit that 9.01(c) allows the umpire to rule that sliding past the bag is equivalent to sliding beyond reach of the bag, if the intent of either is to break up a DP, with no real intent to gain or maintain contact with the base.

We agree on one thing. FPSR does not apply to Babe Ruth.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG

IMO, 6.0(m) case notes do not apply because the runner is not "leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base", ie he has passed the base, maybe even made contact with it on his mission to disrupt the play. This sounds like a situation where the runner slides 6 feet away from the bag to take out a fielder. In my 2004 version of the PBUC manual, section 4.3, which is titled "Willful and and Deliberate Interference" there is a quote "in sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot". None of the examples provided involve sliding past the bag to break up a DP, perhaps because that would not be "sliding to a base", it would be "sliding beyond the base". Most folks have access to 6.05(m) because it's in the rule book. but how many have a copy of PBUC, from where we read the hand and foot reference? And even after reading we don't have a clear ruling on sliding past the bag. I submit that 9.01(c) allows the umpire to rule that sliding past the bag is equivalent to sliding beyond reach of the bag, if the intent of either is to break up a DP, with no real intent to gain or maintain contact with the base.

We agree on one thing. FPSR does not apply to Babe Ruth.

Every umpire who works games using the official rules of baseball MUST have an NAPBL/PBUC manual. It is a necessary complememt to the official rules.

All I can say is that --- you're wrong. You are putting your own personal opinion above the way the game of baseball is called. If a rule committee decides that the fielder cannot slide beyond the base then they would specifically include that in their rules, like the FED and NCAA have. With the FPSR. The OBR is MORE LENIENT than the FED or the NCAA. It still requires a legal slide, but we've already covered what constitutes a legal slide.

One last question and I'm out of this discussion -- how exactly can a fielder slide feet first, reach a base with his hand, and not be beyond the base?

[ecurebel]

In a Babe Ruth game I saw this play last night that i was watching but not working. with less than two outs R1 on first base is forced to go to second by batter/runner. R1 overslides second base purposely breaking up the double play and taking the fielder out.

to be honest i don't think either one of you are looking at the main question but fighting amongst yourselves. here it states that the player DELIBERATELY over slid the bag to make contact with the player trying to roll the double.

what should be done by both umpires in the case pointed out by the first post of this topic? if the base guy didn't see it should the plate guy call it?


and to be truely honest here again, i would have to say that an umpire who can call the game on feel with rules and not belittle his associates in the umpiring profession makes a good umpire just as well as the guy who knows all the rules, but does not know how to carry himself on and off the field and on forums such as this

[mcrowder]

You've missed the point again.

Just because the slide is deliberate, doesn't make it illegal. At least not in OBR.

PS - it's BU's call if he sees it. If he's moved on, it's also PU's responsibility to call it if he sees it.

But this play sounds legal to me.

[Rich]

Originally posted by ecurebel

to be honest i don't think either one of you are looking at the main question but fighting amongst yourselves. here it states that the player DELIBERATELY over slid the bag to make contact with the player trying to roll the double.

what should be done by both umpires in the case pointed out by the first post of this topic? if the base guy didn't see it should the plate guy call it?


and to be truely honest here again, i would have to say that an umpire who can call the game on feel with rules and not belittle his associates in the umpiring profession makes a good umpire just as well as the guy who knows all the rules, but does not know how to carry himself on and off the field and on forums such as this

Who's fighting? He can slide past the bag by the way if his hand is wrapped around the base and knock the fielder into next month provided all other aspects of the slide are legal. Unless there's a FPSR specifically forbidding it.

Your last paragraph is unnecessary. Preach elsewhere.

[DG]

Like I said, more than once, if he slides past the bag to take out a fielder who is working on a double play, and he slides so far past he is beyond the bag, and beyond reach, I am going to call him out, and the runner going to 1B. If I have to use 9.01(c) I will because I don't read anywhere that sliding past the bag is legal or illegal, so in my book it's illegal. If I am on bases and don't see it, because I turned my head on the DP, then I expect PU to get it. He should be watching for this. If the coach don't like the call he can come out and argue about it for about 15 mS.

[Edited by DG on Jun 8th, 2004 at 10:01 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DG
Like I said, more than once, if he slides past the bag to take out a fielder who is working on a double play, and he slides so far past he is beyond the bag, and beyond reach, I am going to call him out, and the runner going to 1B. If I have to use 9.01(c) I will because I don't read anywhere that sliding past the bag is legal or illegal, so in my book it's illegal. If I am on bases and don't see it, because I turned my head on the DP, then I expect PU to get it. He should be watching for this. If the coach don't like the call he can come out and argue about it for about 15 mS.

[Edited by DG on Jun 8th, 2004 at 10:01 PM]

But it also depends on *where* the contact occurred. IF the contact occurred over (above) or in front of the base, it's not interference, even if the runner ends up well past / beyond the base, even in those leagues that have a FPSR (assuming nothing else about the slide was illegal).

As the play is described, I have a hard time envisioning R1 sliding past the base by 8' or so, then making contact and this happening in such a way that (1) R1 is out on the focre and (2) the contact interferes with F4/6's throw to first. Are we saying F4/6 caught the ball, touoched second, then stepped *back* 2 or three steps before throwing to first?

Also, the rule book is *generally* written so that illegal activities are defined; activities not specified as illegal are generally legal. So, I'd think twice about using 9.01(c) (or the similar rule in FED and NCAA) to define an illegal activity. (I'm not one who says "never use 9.01(c)." But, as a practical matter, it's rarely used -- especially if you consider the interps.)

[mcrowder]

DG - what other rules do you plan on inventing because you feel like it, and then when questioned, invoke 9.01C. That interp is atrocious.

How can the fielder be in such a position that a runner sliding through the bag loses contact with the bag, and THEN hits the fielder - and the fielder also be in such a position to force him out at second? It boggles the mind.

[akalsey]

Originally posted by mcrowder
How can the fielder be in such a position that a runner sliding through the bag loses contact with the bag, and THEN hits the fielder - and the fielder also be in such a position to force him out at second? It boggles the mind.

Saw a play that illustrates how that could conceivably happen in a highlight reel from yesterday's pro games, but I don't recall the teams.

The situation was a bit different: there were no runners on, so no force at second. But the actions of the fielder would cause exactly what you describe had there been R1.

F6 playing very deep, bouncing ball hit sharply just to the right side of 2B. F6 breaks toward the back of the bag to make the play, but F4 makes a great play and grabs the ball with his momentum carrying him to the bag.

Instead of trying to pivot 180 while going the wrong direction, he flips to F6 who is about 5 feet beyond the bag in a direct line from 1B through 2B.

F6 thows out BR at first. So the play was scored 4-6-3, one out.

Assuming there had been R1, he'd have been retired by F4 as F4 passed the bag. F4 flips to F6, R1 overslides and hits F6 as he makes the throw.

In that case, I'd call BR out on interference. If in my judgement, the runner is sliding at the fielder instead of at the bag, that's interference. If the runner has a reasonable chance of touching the bag, he's sliding at the bag.

[Rich]

Originally posted by akalsey

Saw a play that illustrates how that could conceivably happen in a highlight reel from yesterday's pro games, but I don't recall the teams.

The situation was a bit different: there were no runners on, so no force at second. But the actions of the fielder would cause exactly what you describe had there been R1.

F6 playing very deep, bouncing ball hit sharply just to the right side of 2B. F6 breaks toward the back of the bag to make the play, but F4 makes a great play and grabs the ball with his momentum carrying him to the bag.

Instead of trying to pivot 180 while going the wrong direction, he flips to F6 who is about 5 feet beyond the bag in a direct line from 1B through 2B.

F6 thows out BR at first. So the play was scored 4-6-3, one out.

Assuming there had been R1, he'd have been retired by F4 as F4 passed the bag. F4 flips to F6, R1 overslides and hits F6 as he makes the throw.

In that case, I'd call BR out on interference. If in my judgement, the runner is sliding at the fielder instead of at the bag, that's interference. If the runner has a reasonable chance of touching the bag, he's sliding at the bag.

It doesn't matter who he's sliding at -- as long as he can reach the base with a hand or foot. "Taking out the fielder" is part of the game at ALL levels, as long as it's done legally.

[akalsey]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
It doesn't matter who he's sliding at -- as long as he can reach the base with a hand or foot. "Taking out the fielder" is part of the game at ALL levels, as long as it's done legally.

I understand that. That's why I said if he has a reasonable chance of reaching the bag, he's going for the bag.

I coach 8 and 9 year olds and I'm thinking of the young inexperienced player that slides and isn't touching the bag. Not because he's sliding illegally, but because he doesn't understand the concept of stretching out to maintain contact.

[Baseball_North]

I had a play in my game a couple of weeks ago.... I was playing a game downtown in Toronto....

I was R1. There were runners on 1st (me) and 3rd with 1 out. BR chops a bouncing ball to 2B who flips to the SS who tries to quickly turn the double play... just as he catches the ball and steps on the base, I come crashing into his legs beside the base and he tumbles over top of me and ends up on the ground. I lost my helmet on the play, and still have the bruise on my leg from his foot. R1 out, BR safe, R3 scores. I got up, told him nice play to hang on to the ball, he said nice break-up.... play on.

Good baseball play all around.