got a new one for you.

wobster · #1 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 08:09pm

I am pretty sure this is a new question. Let me know what you think as it is most certainly a judgement call.

R3 stealing home, b1 bunts to pitcher, who underhands to the catcher for an easy out at home, but wait, there's more!

As R3 is sliding, he throws his foot up in an obvious attempt to kick F2's mitt, which he does. Ball drops to ground, R3 scores (by my call). Fan's go nuts. They scream and complain at me, I ignore them. Later in the day I ask another GOOD umpire, and he says I made the right call. Tonight I get to field and get reprimanded (sorta) by the League President saying he got close to 15 calls over the weekend, and he was sick of hearing it. You make the call, out or safe?

Baseball_North · #2 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 08:14pm

Hard to say without seeing it.

If he was trying to disloge the ball from the catcher, I would call SAFE.

If the contact appears malicious, and I feel as if he was trying to hurt the catcher by "spiking" him, and just luckily caught his glove instead of his body, then I call him out and eject him.

I'll go with safe though.

mrm21711 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 08:46pm

This is just my humble opinion, but I would first like to say your league President is a real piece of work. Somebody in his position should not come to you and reprimand you, thats just insane. Even if you made the worst call in the world, that still is wrong, in my opinion. He should handle that with more tact.

In regards to the play mentioned, as you describe it, I would call the runner out. In regards to the NFHS rule book, rule 8-4-2b states that any runner is out when he does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play. I reference back to legal slide, rule 2-32-2, citing an illegal slide as: d) the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg (which is a judgment but I believe there was intent there) and most importantly b) the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is standing

LMan · #4 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 09:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mrm21711
This is just my humble opinion, but I would first like to say your league President is a real piece of work. Somebody in his position should not come to you and reprimand you, thats just insane.

heh. I had my league prez come to the backstop DURING A GAME with a rulebook in his hand to argue that I blew a call 2 innings before.....*eyeroll*

wobster · #5 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 10:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mrm21711

In regards to the play mentioned, as you describe it, I would call the runner out. In regards to the NFHS rule book, rule 8-4-2b states that any runner is out when he does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play. I reference back to legal slide, rule 2-32-2, citing an illegal slide as: d) the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg (which is a judgment but I believe there was intent there) and most importantly b) the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is standing

The mitt was about a foot off the ground, and in between his widespread legs. I am sure that R3 was trying for the mitt, because the coach told me after the game that he trained his better 2 or 3 players to slide into the mitt hard or kick it during the slide, to knock the ball loose. He could be BS'ing me, but I have known him for about 10 years, so I doubt it.

Quote:

Originally posted by LMan

heh. I had my league prez come to the backstop DURING A GAME with a rulebook in his hand to argue that I blew a call 2 innings before.....*eyeroll*

Sounds like the league president we had last year *LOL* They must all come from the same group.

DG · #6 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 10:51pm

OBR is ok with crashing the catcher in any way to dislodge the ball. So under OBR, no penalty. However, NCAA and FED would not allow a base runner to kick at a catcher with intent to dislodge the ball. This is a safety rule and since NCAA and FED take care of it, I would rule likewise for all youth leagues, at all ages. If a coach wants to argue I will say I only have two options, an out or an out and ejection for malicious contact. That will send the coach back to the dugout. I have an OUT, even if the catcher drops the ball.

Now if you rule this way, you don't have the league president on your back, because all the parents are concerned for the safety of their players. The proper way for him to address the situation is to discuss with whomever is booking the umpires (ie there is a chain of command), and then they can come to me to discuss in private. If I get a League President giving me a reprimand when I arrive at the field for another game (ie he has hunted me down, and I have not heard this from my booking agent first) I will be happy to discuss with him, explain rules, etc., and if we can not reach consensus that he is full of sh*t, then he can get dressed to do the game in my place, as far as I am concerned.

If he comes during a game with a rulebook in hand to discuss something that happened 2 innings previous, then there will be a game delay as I explain the rules to him, which may include the fact that judgement calls are not to be questioned, by coaches, managers, or league presidents.

By the way, I have never had a league president bother me before or during a game, but if it ever happens, it's not going to make me a happy camper.

wobster · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 10:58pm

OK, DG, you gave me the proof I needed. I needed a ruling one way or another. We have talked about it a few times, and noone knows the rule.

Thanks again,

Chad

Oh, by the way, the league prez didn't reprimand me for the call, he did so because I didn't explain it to the fans and they called him. I was always told not to argue with an angry mob....

Carl Childress · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wobster
I am pretty sure this is a new question. Let me know what you think as it is most certainly a judgement call.

R3 stealing home, b1 bunts to pitcher, who underhands to the catcher for an easy out at home, but wait, there's more!

As R3 is sliding, he throws his foot up in an obvious attempt to kick F2's mitt, which he does. Ball drops to ground, R3 scores (by my call). Fan's go nuts. They scream and complain at me, I ignore them. Later in the day I ask another GOOD umpire, and he says I made the right call. Tonight I get to field and get reprimanded (sorta) by the League President saying he got close to 15 calls over the weekend, and he was sick of hearing it. You make the call, out or safe?

Sorry, your call was wrong. The runner may not slap or kick the glove to dislodge the ball. Mike Fitzpatrick, PBUC, 11/08/01. Only legal contact (sliding or non-malicious body contact) is allowed.

wobster · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 11:03pm

Any chance anyone has a rule number for that and in which rules? If I am going to get this to hold up to the coaches objections, I am going to need it in writing.

wobster · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 11:05pm

Carl, don't be sorry, I know I will make wrong calls, but I needed help to know this rule, which you guys did. Thanks,

Chad

Carl Childress · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wobster
Any chance anyone has a rule number for that and in which rules? If I am going to get this to hold up to the coaches objections, I am going to need it in writing.

The FED ruling is 8-4-2r. The Fitzpatrick ruling is in Section 277 of the BRD. Mike is the Director of the Professional Baseball Umpire Corp. His rulings are official for the minor leagues. (I assume you use the OBR in your Youth League.)

Plus, you might point out that a little common sense should prevail in this instance. If a runner can kick the ball out of the fielder's glove in an illegal slide (foot higher than the fielder's knee), then he can slap it out of the glove or mitt. What about grabbing the glove to pull it off the fielder's hand. Think of all the close plays that would be "safes" if such behavior was legal; and if the League rules it legal, they're on their way to plenty of rough play.

[Edited by Carl Childress on May 19th, 2004 at 12:17 AM]

wobster · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 11:23pm

Thanks, Carl. You are the Man!

BTW, looking forward to trying the GD on saturday. I purposely signed up for a lower level game that I normally wouldn't do so I can try it. I will report findings.

BTW2, When is your next seminar? I would be very interested in attending. e-mail is [email protected]

DG · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2004, 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wobster
OK, DG, you gave me the proof I needed. I needed a ruling one way or another. We have talked about it a few times, and noone knows the rule.

Thanks again,

Chad

Oh, by the way, the league prez didn't reprimand me for the call, he did so because I didn't explain it to the fans and they called him. I was always told not to argue with an angry mob....

I might provide a brief explanation to fans in some situations on simple rulings. Example might be a foul tip, ie it's live. Sometimes there is one guy in the crowd that if you explain to, he will update the rest. This situation would require a discussion with the head coach, although I would have reached a different ruling.

ozzy6900 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 07:15am

Quote:

......Tonight I get to field and get reprimanded (sorta) by the League President saying he got close to 15 calls over the weekend, and he was sick of hearing it.

Tell the League President to stick it! Who the hell does he think that he is? If your UIC has a problem with you that's one thing. The League President has no business doing this! And if you let him do this to you, you are just as big a fool!

wobster · #15 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 07:22am

I am basically our UIC. I do most of the games at the diamond (this year about 30 out of 40). I am relatively new. Our board is set up as this:

President
VP of Majors (10-13) (Me)
VP of Minors (7-9) (Me)
Treasurer
1/4 pint coach
1/2 pint coach
2 Member at large

I play a big part of this league, and didn't think I deserved a reprimand. The President was my baseball coach when I was coming up, so I guess he thinks he still is.