balk

[3appleshigh]

would have been that there really was no play, no out, no balk, nothing just a time delay. Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible. LOL

Not only is the coach dumb for trying the HBT, but he can even do it right. I might warn the coach for time delaying tactics. But other than that I would have to laugh at him, and laugh hard.

[WillSun]

Guys, I'm just a youth coach in my 2nd year, so bear with me....
The ball never would have been dead, because the pitcher was on the mound with it when the coach called time... Right?

I'm not aware of any rule in Dixie Youth, which is what I coach, that covers this topic. I would think that once time had resumed, it would be legal, as long as the pitcher wasn't touching the rubber....
Coach Will

[LDUB]

Originally posted by WillSun
Guys, I'm just a youth coach in my 2nd year, so bear with me....
The ball never would have been dead, because the pitcher was on the mound with it when the coach called time... Right?
Coach Will

The ball is dead when the umpire calls time. It is not live again untill he calls play.

[Tim C]

"The ball never would have been dead, because the pitcher was on the mound with it when the coach called time... Right?"

If I read your question correctly, "No". The post clearly states that the coach called time, came out to the mound.

"I would think that once time had resumed, it would be legal,"

Again "No" . . . the point being made is that an umpire, by rule, cannot put the ball back into play without the pitcher HAVING THE BALL and assuming his position on the mound.

As an umpire you cannot give the "Play" signal until the pitcher has legally positioned himself. If the ball is not in the pitcher's possesion then the "play" sign cannot be given and the ball remains dead.

THEREFORE, it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

And I don't care what any "Big Dog" veteran umpires may say.

It cannot happen.

Tee

[WillSun]

Like I said.... Bear with me....

I've seen umps call time after a runner slides, and once the runner is back on the bag and ready, the ump calls for play to resume, and the pitcher never had received the ball... Should the ump have waited untill the pitcher had the ball and was on the mound?

[Tim C]

You just nailed it. Anytime the ball becomes DEAD it cannot be made LIVE without the pitcher having the ball and re-assuming a legal positon on the mound.

Can't happen, never, nada, zero, zilch -- without the ball and legal position. Time remains out!

If you have seen umpires doing otherwise they are not umpires.

BTW, I have seen COLLEGE umpires screw this pooch!

Tee

[Tim C]

"Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible."

The most common and effective hidden ball trick goes thusly:

R1 - Less than 2 outs . . .

Batter sacrifices and the play is from an infielder to F4 covering first base.

BR is out and R1 has now become R2.

As soon as F4 catches the ball he acts like he hands it to another player (can be F1 but that is not neccessary could be anyone) . . .

However, just prior to this hand off F4 has placed the ball in his left arm pit and lowers his arm.

F1 DOES NOT GO TO THE MOUND, normally F1 and F2 have a conference in the infield.

F4 casually returns to the base at second where R2 is stationed.

Many times the runner will be dusting off, or looking around and not be in contact with the base.

By having the ball in the arm pit out of sight F4 makes sure that R2 can see not only his open and empty throwing hand but shows (casually) his empty glove.

R2 steps off base for whatever reason . . .

and you know "The Rest of the Story!"

I have seen this work at the college level 5 or 6 times over the decades.

Tee

[WillSun]

I've got to train my boys on that one! LOL!
(Not to mention broaden my own understanding of the rules...)

[3appleshigh]

Originally posted by Tim C
"Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible."

The most common and effective hidden ball trick goes thusly:

R1 - Less than 2 outs . . .

Batter sacrifices and the play is from an infielder to F4 covering first base.

BR is out and R1 has now become R2.

As soon as F4 catches the ball he acts like he hands it to another player (can be F1 but that is not neccessary could be anyone) . . .

However, just prior to this hand off F4 has placed the ball in his left arm pit and lowers his arm.

F1 DOES NOT GO TO THE MOUND, normally F1 and F2 have a conference in the infield.

F4 casually returns to the base at second where R2 is stationed.

Many times the runner will be dusting off, or looking around and not be in contact with the base.

By having the ball in the arm pit out of sight F4 makes sure that R2 can see not only his open and empty throwing hand but shows (casually) his empty glove.

R2 steps off base for whatever reason . . .

and you know "The Rest of the Story!"

I have seen this work at the college level 5 or 6 times over the decades.

Tee

Well thanks for being treated like a four year old, so here is one right back.

Now that you have explained the HBT (no one is sure why)why don't you re-read the quote you took from me and answer that question mr. Big Yap.

I said "Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible." Note: WITHOUT THE BALL IN PLAY, that was the crux of my question which failed to sink into your mind. You were just too excited to rip on another person here. Well congrats you made a fool of yourself once again.

[Tim C]

What a piece of work you are my friend.

I simply gave a hidden ball trick that is used. Nothing more. You took offense, so be it.

I wasn't trying to make any statement about you.

Tee

[3appleshigh]

Why then is the post titled to me and I'm quoted???

I think you have made your rep plain as can be and when that happens you sometimes say the wrong thing and it gets pointed out for all to look at.

If you did not mean your condesending tone and simply did not seethe words NOT IN PLAY then I accept your appology for the rude behaviour to me and I freely give mine in return. But I don't see that as your style.

[Tim C]

Take me as you wish. You have made up your mind and I have no plan to try to change that feeling.

I titled the post to you and used you quote as a jumping off point to simply post a hidden ball trick that is legal and actually has worked.

You obviously were waiting to jump my a$$ and that is your right.

You made it this big . . . I was just trying to be helpful.

I have been critical of Canadian Umpires in the past and especially Baseball Quebec, that is something I am working on . . .

Trust me, I respect you more than to treat you as a 4 year old.

Tee

[mcrowder]

I would have said I respect 4-year olds more.

Totally don't see what set him off.

PS - here's your Dixie rule ... same as that above:

5.11 — After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes position on the pitcher’s plate with a new ball or the same ball in said pitcher’s possession and the plate umpire calls “Play.” The plate umpire shall call “Play” as soon as the pitcher takes position on the plate with possession of the ball.

[3appleshigh]

I guess your rep preceeded you and I jumped the gun so we all will now be friends and hold hands and whatever. LOL

No issue we'll keep posting and be happy.

[Tim C]

Do you know the words to Kum-ba-Ya!

Tee