does the pitcher on a hiden ball trick have to be of the rubber or the entire mound?

Depends on which rules are in use.

OBR - not on or astride the rubber
FED - not within approx 5 feet of the rubber
NCAA - not on the mound

In the Ontario rules, he can't be on the mound (within the 18 foot radius of the rubber).

We must realize that it is NOT a balk if the ball is dead, and is about to be put into play.

For the ball to be put into play, the pitcher must assume his position on the rubber with the ball, and the umpire calls "play".

If he doesn't have the ball, then there is no way the ball can be put into play, therefore it is a dead ball, therefore it is not a balk.

However, if the pitcher is on the mound, deceiving the runner by not having the ball, then a balk should be enforced.

Little League - Not within the 18 foot radius.

Do coaches still teach this to players and use this on a frequent basis, geeeez, give it up! JMO

As long as umpires allow them to get away with this, they will!

As a coach six years ago, I had this happen to me in a high school game by an umpire who wore an NCAA cap and was very adamant in telling me of his umpire school experience. He wasn't even listed in the state umpire roster.

What do you mean "allow them to get away with this?"

This is legal, it just depends on what rules you are under what is allowed and what is not.

Peace

Had one of these happen in a Babe Ruth (OBR) district tournament last year. I wasn't umpiring the game, but I was the official scorer and ended up umpiring the championship game between the same two teams later in the week.

Tie game, R3, 2 out, bottom 7th. Defensive coach calls time, goes to the mound, calls in the infield. Pitcher gives the ball to the third baseman, everyone returns to their positions. F1 then straddles the rubber without the ball and with the ball still dead. F5 tags R3, game is apparently headed to extra innings. Umpires confer and award R3 home on a balk. After the game when the umpires got back upstairs, I contended that there should have been no balk called because 1) the ball was not live, 2) for the ball to become live the pitcher had to step on the rubber WITH the ball, and 3) there cannot be a balk on a dead ball. They disagreed.

What do y'all think?

Plate Conference:

"Ok gentlemen we are here for 7 innings and I just want to make something perfectly clear here today before we get started. Hidden Ball tricks will not be tolerated.

Now, lets go over the ground rules."

I guess that fixes the problem, right.

You are right. The ball cannot become live until the pitcher takes the mound WITH THE BALL. And there can't be a balk with a dead ball. Wipe the egg off your face and put the ball back in play.

Why would you not allow hidden ball tricks? If they are done correctly, they are perfectly legal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]

1. Because the ball is hidden and it is impossible to perform a trick when you can't find the object you are performing the trick with. But that could be the trick????

2.Actually LDUB, that was my point.

Actually, Little League rules duplicate the pro rule, which only prohibits the pitcher from being "on or astride" the pitching plate without the ball.

It fixes something that isn't broken, and only exposes you to bigger problems than any hidden ball trick, whether executed legally or otherwise, will cause you.

I guess they wouldn't listen to me because I was "some 19-year-old kid that didn't know what he was talking about" and they were "seasoned vets." Now that I think about it, I was on the protest committee for that game. If the coach had protested the call, we would have probably overturned it.

Incorrect on LL. The LL rule is the same as OBR - not on or astride the rubber.