Interesting Goof by the PU

[rmstone]

Interesting issue here... OBR...

Bases loaded, third strike is not caught... a young umpire calls "strike three, batters out!" the coaches seem to know the difference and yell for the runner to run... the defence, after thinking the inning is over, freak out and throw the ball into right field trying to make the play, two runs come in to score on the overthrow.

Coaches come out to argue and the parks chief umpire is asked for (which happens to be me that night, I was acting in place of the normal chief)

I ask the umpires (away from the coaches) what they saw and what they called. Well clearly the call isn't right, but can/should it be changed? Calling the batter out was a dead ball call and ended the play and the inning. The defence wasn't given a fair chance as they started to walk off before the throw, causing the error. Can the umpire claim a judgement call on the catch? Can the coach protest as its a rule violation?

Can a call that ends play be reversed?

[Peruvian]

Much like a foul ball (unless it is a questionable home run) can not be changed; this would be difficult.

However, whereas the defense should know an infield fly rule is in effect and the onus is on them to know the difference, I would say the defense should have known the rule here, regardless of what the umpire said.

Seems to me he's just going to have to eat it.

[DG]

Originally posted by rmstone
Interesting issue here... OBR...

Bases loaded, third strike is not caught... a young umpire calls "strike three, batters out!" the coaches seem to know the difference and yell for the runner to run... the defence, after thinking the inning is over, freak out and throw the ball into right field trying to make the play, two runs come in to score on the overthrow.

Coaches come out to argue and the parks chief umpire is asked for (which happens to be me that night, I was acting in place of the normal chief)

I ask the umpires (away from the coaches) what they saw and what they called. Well clearly the call isn't right, but can/should it be changed? Calling the batter out was a dead ball call and ended the play and the inning. The defence wasn't given a fair chance as they started to walk off before the throw, causing the error. Can the umpire claim a judgement call on the catch? Can the coach protest as its a rule violation?

Can a call that ends play be reversed?

This is kind of like knowing when the IFF is in effect. The defense has to know the situation. The defense, and especially the catcher, must know that a dropped third strike is not yet an out in this situation. Having heard the umpire say "strike three, the batter's out", the catcher should know better, because he is the one that did not catch the ball, why didn't he just pick it up and step on the plate? The offensive coach could protest the out call by the umpire as a rules interpretation, as long as PU admits he knew the ball was not caught, but called him out anyway. The defensive coach does not have much to argue about because his catcher could have prevented all this nonsense, but instead threw the ball away. Somebody is going to be disappointed in the ruling, and I say it will be the defense. I think the out call is correctable.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Peruvian
Much like a foul ball (unless it is a questionable home run) can not be changed; this would be difficult.

However, whereas the defense should know an infield fly rule is in effect and the onus is on them to know the difference, I would say the defense should have known the rule here, regardless of what the umpire said.

Seems to me he's just going to have to eat it.

I don't know about that. If the PU refuses to change his call, he says the pitch was caught then the batter is out. But in the play described, it looks as if both teams played it as if they knew the umpire was wrong. The BR ran to first, and the defense tried to retire him. I say leave the play as is.

Here is a similar situation and how it was handled.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

I had a play during this past baseball season where my partner helped me. I was the PU. There was a runner on 1st and 2nd with 1 out I believe. There was a pitch in the dirt (I could not see it hit the dirt) on a swinging 3rd strike. The catcher completely blocked me off from an angle on the play and the batter start running to first base. The batter/runner made first cleanly, because the throw to first was an errant throw and pulled the first baseman off the base. My partner comes right to me after the play is dead (like we had talked about in our pregame on situations like this) and we had a talk away from the coaches and players. He told me that the ball was caught by the catcher, which made the batter/runner out immediately. I completely agreed with him because I did not have the best look at the play. I was the one that made the signal for the batter being out after our conversation. Not my partner, but me. I took his information and changed my own call. How you are suppose to do it. Just like in Basketball. The same procedure applies. Similar language in the rulebook applies. My partner that day is a D1 and Minor League Umpire as well. Anyone from our area knows him and that is how we handled that situation.

[DG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB

Originally posted by Peruvian
Much like a foul ball (unless it is a questionable home run) can not be changed; this would be difficult.

However, whereas the defense should know an infield fly rule is in effect and the onus is on them to know the difference, I would say the defense should have known the rule here, regardless of what the umpire said.

Seems to me he's just going to have to eat it.

I don't know about that. If the PU refuses to change his call, he says the pitch was caught then the batter is out. But in the play described, it looks as if both teams played it as if they knew the umpire was wrong. The BR ran to first, and the defense tried to retire him. I say leave the play as is.

Here is a similar situation and how it was handled.

Originally posted by JRutledge

I had a play during this past baseball season where my partner helped me. I was the PU. There was a runner on 1st and 2nd with 1 out I believe. There was a pitch in the dirt (I could not see it hit the dirt) on a swinging 3rd strike. The catcher completely blocked me off from an angle on the play and the batter start running to first base. The batter/runner made first cleanly, because the throw to first was an errant throw and pulled the first baseman off the base. My partner comes right to me after the play is dead (like we had talked about in our pregame on situations like this) and we had a talk away from the coaches and players. He told me that the ball was caught by the catcher, which made the batter/runner out immediately. I completely agreed with him because I did not have the best look at the play. I was the one that made the signal for the batter being out after our conversation. Not my partner, but me. I took his information and changed my own call. How you are suppose to do it. Just like in Basketball. The same procedure applies. Similar language in the rulebook applies. My partner that day is a D1 and Minor League Umpire as well. Anyone from our area knows him and that is how we handled that situation.

In your second example, the batter is out either way, because 1B is occupied with less than two out. Catcher should know that also, so why did he throw. Defense erred. BR who made it 1B is out. If the other runners advanced on the throw then so be it..

[jprideaux]

Originally posted by DG

In your second example, the batter is out either way, because 1B is occupied with less than two out. Catcher should know that also, so why did he throw. Defense erred. BR who made it 1B is out. If the other runners advanced on the throw then so be it.. [/B]

Um, in the cited thread, Rut later stated that 1B was unoccupied, so BR was not automatically out on strike 3.

John

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by rmstone
Interesting issue here... OBR...

Calling the batter out was a dead ball call and ended the play and the inning.

I am going to assume that there are 2 outs.

This statement sums up the situation. The ball is dead, the umpire killed it when he called BR out, even though this is the wrong call.

I had a similiar situation occur with me during my first game back from Iraq. Foul Tip - I put my hands up signaling dead ball, the PU mirrors. I send R1 back to first, he is tagged by F4. PU realizes what is going on, comes out and we talk. I wake up and put R1 on first and take the out away. Offensive coach is in my ear for killing a foul tip. Defensive coach is in my ear for not giving him the out. What I said was "guys, I messed up. I killed a ball that should have been live. what we are going to do is but R1 back at 1st and continue with this game. I messed up, now let's move on." Coaches shut up, turned around and walked back to the dugout. We say "ain't nothing 'til I call it"...make sure we call the right thing.

[LDUB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG

Originally posted by LDUB

I don't know about that. If the PU refuses to change his call, he says the pitch was caught then the batter is out. But in the play described, it looks as if both teams played it as if they knew the umpire was wrong. The BR ran to first, and the defense tried to retire him. I say leave the play as is.

Here is a similar situation and how it was handled.

In your second example, the batter is out either way, because 1B is occupied with less than two out. Catcher should know that also, so why did he throw. Defense erred. BR who made it 1B is out. If the other runners advanced on the throw then so be it..

Ohh sorry about that. Rut posted it wrong. He meant to say only a runner on second. Here is the thread if you want to see it. It is at the bottom of the first page, and the top of the second.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...threadid=14434

[LDUB]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
I am going to assume that there are 2 outs.

This statement sums up the situation. The ball is dead, the umpire killed it when he called BR out, even though this is the wrong call.

I had a similiar situation occur with me during my first game back from Iraq. Foul Tip - I put my hands up signaling dead ball, the PU mirrors. I send R1 back to first, he is tagged by F4. PU realizes what is going on, comes out and we talk. I wake up and put R1 on first and take the out away. Offensive coach is in my ear for killing a foul tip. Defensive coach is in my ear for not giving him the out. What I said was "guys, I messed up. I killed a ball that should have been live. what we are going to do is but R1 back at 1st and continue with this game. I messed up, now let's move on." Coaches shut up, turned around and walked back to the dugout. We say "ain't nothing 'til I call it"...make sure we call the right thing.

So what would you do if this comes up? R1, R2 and 2 out. Fly ball to F8 who dives towards the ball. You call the BR out because the ball was caught. Then you see F8 get up and run and pick up the ball, becaause the ball was not caught.

According to you, the ball was dead when you called the third out. So now what to you do with the three runners? Give them all one base, two bases? How are you going to explain this to either manager? You're stuck. If only you would have changed your call to no catch. Then no one complains. It was an obvious missed call which you changed within a second or two of making the call.

[zebracz]

I agree w/ LDUB..You HAVE to correct this call. But, we need to make sure that there are two outs, as was mentioned earlier--if not the PU was correct anyways.
So w/ bases loaded and 2 outs, PU calls "strike three, batter out," on a dropped 3rd strike, the batter-runner is still running down to 1st. F2 overthrows and live ball continued. Although, strike three is called (to end the inning,) that doesn't necessarily mean the play is dead. So, then after the play is over (the 2 runs scored,) you can explain THAT to the coaches. The kids still played on, you never called DEAD BALL, so, that is your correcting of your error (the kids save you).

As DG said earlier, you can correct it--or should correct it. Of course, hope we stay alert enough to not let this happen (but it DOES happen sometimes.) Now in the case of killing a foul ball being called, when it was fair or a fair ball being called (vocally) and a runner stops thinking the PU said "foul," but F4 tags him (etc). I just believe that you should get in right. Right? You will have to call this runner Out, even though he stopped, thinking PU called 'foul.' But if a PU calls it 'foul,' when it really isn't? ya, you have to eat that one. But not in the original case posted first. You don't have to eat the dropped third strike called incorrect because the play wasn't REALLY dead, know what I mean?

[mrm21711]

Funny this came up, here is a response from Joe Brinkman on the World Umpires Ask the Umpire Webpage.

If the umpires forget to call/signal for an infield fly, and the ball is not caught, what should be done? Likewise, what happens if the umpires call/signal an infield fly when by rule (i.e., there are two out) the infield fly does not apply, and the ball is not caught? (Dick)

If there was supposed to be an infield fly, but you let it get away from you without calling it, you have to let the play go and see what happens. If the dust clears and the defense got a double play that the infield fly rule was meant to prevent, you have to step in and make things right, which would mean calling the batter out and sending runners back, nullifying one of the outs. If an infield fly was called but could not have been an infield fly by rule, the players must ignore the call and the results of the play would stand. The players are responsible to know the rule and number of outs, just as you are.

http://worldumpires.com/askUmp.htm

[David B]

Originally posted by mrm21711
Funny this came up, here is a response from Joe Brinkman on the World Umpires Ask the Umpire Webpage.

If the umpires forget to call/signal for an infield fly, and the ball is not caught, what should be done? Likewise, what happens if the umpires call/signal an infield fly when by rule (i.e., there are two out) the infield fly does not apply, and the ball is not caught? (Dick)

If there was supposed to be an infield fly, but you let it get away from you without calling it, you have to let the play go and see what happens. If the dust clears and the defense got a double play that the infield fly rule was meant to prevent, you have to step in and make things right, which would mean calling the batter out and sending runners back, nullifying one of the outs. If an infield fly was called but could not have been an infield fly by rule, the players must ignore the call and the results of the play would stand. The players are responsible to know the rule and number of outs, just as you are.

http://worldumpires.com/askUmp.htm

For guys who do FED though, its in IFF whether we call it or not. They really put the onus on the players/coaches to know what's going on.

thanks
David

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by LDUB

So what would you do if this comes up? R1, R2 and 2 out. Fly ball to F8 who dives towards the ball. You call the BR out because the ball was caught. Then you see F8 get up and run and pick up the ball, becaause the ball was not caught.

According to you, the ball was dead when you called the third out. So now what to you do with the three runners? Give them all one base, two bases? How are you going to explain this to either manager? You're stuck. If only you would have changed your call to no catch. Then no one complains. It was an obvious missed call which you changed within a second or two of making the call.

LDUB, I will agree with you. I was wrong. On your scenario, the right call is to immediately overturn your incorrect call and then buy your partner a beer for your out-safe call.

Using your logic, the right thing to do is to allow the original play to stand and for PU to eat his call.