What would you do?

[JRutledge]

I am the home plate umpire with a runner on second base (there were other runners, but not relevant to this story). The pitcher pitches a strike down the middle, but the catcher immediately throws the ball to second base to pick off the runner. Now the base umpire is in the middle of the field when this happens and basically falls asleep and does not look at the pick off attempt. The throw clearly beats the runner by a couple of steps. The fielder appears to clearly tag the runner. The base umpire, my partner calls the runner safe. He does not ask for help, he acts like he blew the call, but does not admit he blew the call to me or the coach that is going ape sh!t!! The coach wants me to give help, but I am not helping without being asked.

What would you do?

Would you give your opinion?

Would you let it go?

Peace

[Hugo Tafurst2]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I am the home plate umpire with a runner on second base (there were other runners, but not relevant to this story). The pitcher pitches a strike down the middle, but the catcher immediately throws the ball to second base to pick off the runner. Now the base umpire is in the middle of the field when this happens and basically falls asleep and does not look at the pick off attempt. The throw clearly beats the runner by a couple of steps. The fielder appears to clearly tag the runner. The base umpire, my partner calls the runner safe. He does not ask for help, he acts like he blew the call, but does not admit he blew the call to me or the coach that is going ape sh!t!! The coach wants me to give help, but I am not helping without being asked.

What would you do?

Would you give your opinion?

Would you let it go?

Peace

What would I do?

I'd get ready for the next pitch....

[PAT THE REF]

Hugo:

What would I do?

Whell in this case, the call is left to the base umpire and I would talk to him/her about it in the post-game. I wouldn't talk between innings about it since, it gives the impression that you knew the call was wrong. I would wait a couple of innings when the crowd dies down *(even though they never do) and talk to him about it. However, I would ask him what he saw and then talked about it.

[gumpire]

Hey, check out Rule 9.04(b), I think it will help for the future.
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/runner_7.jsp

[DG]

"He does not ask for help, he acts like he blew the call, but does not admit he blew the call to me or the coach that is going ape sh!t!!". Enough said, he is accepting responsibilty for his call, and I support my partner. If he asks me after the game I tell him I saw a different result. It's a judgement call, not a rules issue.

[Tim C]

I think there is a bigger question here:

When you see your partner "blow" a call what makes what YOU see correct?

Let's use the McClellen call in last years playoffs:

Tim said,

"I saw the ball hit the foul pole so the ball had to be fair!"

Now in retrospect we know the ball never hit the foul pole. Tim called what he honestly "thought" he saw but it was incorrect. The RF umpire probably had the correct call.

Now fast forward to Rut's situation:

Even his partner's body language lead eveyone to believe that the call was missed but it is only an issue that can be discussed "post" play.

I like PAT THE REF's & DG's answer . . . let it go until AFTER the game. Since I seldom (actually never) talk (like between innings, dude) with my partner during a game it is just a time where a calling (or non-calling in this case) umpire lives with his own end of the stick.

This is what makes umpiring interesting.

Tee

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by gumpire
Hey, check out Rule 9.04(b), I think it will help for the future.
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/runner_7.jsp

This was a HS game, not really concerned with OBR rules in this situation, just want to know how others would handle this. And this is not a rules situation as much as a game management situation.

Peace

[David B]

As far as game management, we have to just keep the assistant coaches off the field, and if necessary
we can move toward the area to help get the coach
that might be complaining off the field.

If its a veteran umpire, then I'm leaving him to explain his call (maybe will wake him up for further calls in the game).

If he's a newbie I probably will try to get the coach off the field ASAP since i don't need the young umpires head screwed up for the rest of the game.

Then we can talk about things after the game.

The quicker we can get the game started the better for everyone involved.

Thanks
David

[jicecone]

I agree if the other official is bent solid on not admitting his mistake, let him take the heat, but be nearby to try and keep the fire from going out of control.

During a college game several years ago R1 was sliding into second on a routine force play. EVERYONE, including my kids at home, could see the the second baseman clearly drop the ball on the catch and pick it up after R1 slid into the bag. Well that everyone did not include my partner that was screened by another fielder. What he seen was the ball being thrown to 2nd, and about a second and a half latter, the fielder walking off the bag with the ball in his hand.

I called time and immediately headed off the coach and asked my partner if he had seen the 2nd baseman drop the ball. He asked if there was possesion during the tag of the base by the runner and I stated NO. He then changed his call to safe. The other coach started to come out and I told him to go back to the dugout because the correct call was made on the field. Game went on smoothly from there.

[JRutledge]

but there was something I left out of the discussion. The coach came running out of the dugout and complained about the call immediately. I did not stop him in doing so. I did do what I normally do and come to the area of the discussion. I did not say a word at that discussion, but I was also about 5 to 10 feet away. Then my partner says to me, "do you have anything to offer?" I started to say that "I was too far away..." but then stopped myself and said, "NO." I will admit that I was in a bit of shock, because my partner just dogged the play and was clearly not looking to even know if there was a throw, tag or anything. Then the coach gets upset because he wants to to make a call, which then (this was my fault for saying anything when asked) he wanted me to "overrule" my partner. I told him that, "coach, it is my partner's call and I am not in position to see what happen." Then I quickly started walking back to my position behind the plate and the coach followed me. I let him vent for a couple of seconds more and told him to "go back to the dugout area." He did and the rest of the game went on without a hitch. But I was in such shock, I admit it took me a couple of seconds to get myself together.

Of course there are calls where I think my partner blew it, but not in this way. It was like he did not even want to watch the play and it took him a couple of seconds after the throw was made to second base, for him to realize that there was even a play made at all. I know we all fall asleep at times, but not like that.

Comments.

Peace

[gumpire]

When I gave the rule quote, my intention was not to show that rules would solve the problem.
What I was trying to show was that I think that a discussion between umpires would have appropriate in this situation and, since what you've said is that your partner was out of position, he should, at that point, admit to you that he didn't see the play and defer to you.
If you meet with him, and him alone, and he still won't admit the mistake, the call would stand. I would still discuss it further after the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by gumpire
When I gave the rule quote, my intention was not to show that rules would solve the problem.
What I was trying to show was that I think that a discussion between umpires would have appropriate in this situation and, since what you've said is that your partner was out of position, he should, at that point, admit to you that he didn't see the play and defer to you.
If you meet with him, and him alone, and he still won't admit the mistake, the call would stand. I would still discuss it further after the game.

I understand, but also understand that this is not a game under those rules. And if I did something that this umpire and myself are not familiar with, that can cause even more problems in my opinion. Now if there was a FED Rule (which I am not aware of how to specifically to handle this), that would be another thing. But I cannot explain to a coach, "coach the pro rules say to do this....." without opening a whole can of worms that I do not want to be opened. And I would feel the same way if I was doing a college game as well. Now if I am doing a game with OBR rules, then I have no problem with that remedy. But it would be improper to use procedures outside of the level that you are currently working at that time.

Just an opinion on that specific conversation.

Peace

[gumpire]

Well, I don't see the relevance of what rules the games is played under.
Basic umpiring ethics require that you call the game and put forth best effort to call it correctly.
If you clearly saw the call made by your partner was wrong, you have an obligation as an official of the game to discuss with him at that time. If this were a regional or state tournement and team B lost because of the bad call that was not discussed between the officials, I think you'd have bigger concerns than whether or not the FED rules specifically state you should discuss it.
Use your common sense when your umping a game...a bad call should be addressed immediately. I'm not saying the call should change, only that you let what you saw as a bad call stand, and did nothing.
FYI I found the same wording in several rule books (i.e., NCAA (Rule 3 Sect. 6(h)), IBAF (Rule 9.04(3(b(c))))), so I'm sure that it applys in some way to yours too.

Hope this helps!

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge
but there was something I left out of the discussion. The coach came running out of the dugout and complained about the call immediately. I did not stop him in doing so. I did do what I normally do and come to the area of the discussion. I did not say a word at that discussion, but I was also about 5 to 10 feet away. Then my partner says to me, "do you have anything to offer?" I started to say that "I was too far away..." but then stopped myself and said, "NO." I will admit that I was in a bit of shock, because my partner just dogged the play and was clearly not looking to even know if there was a throw, tag or anything. Then the coach gets upset because he wants to to make a call, which then (this was my fault for saying anything when asked) he wanted me to "overrule" my partner. I told him that, "coach, it is my partner's call and I am not in position to see what happen." Then I quickly started walking back to my position behind the plate and the coach followed me. I let him vent for a couple of seconds more and told him to "go back to the dugout area." He did and the rest of the game went on without a hitch. But I was in such shock, I admit it took me a couple of seconds to get myself together.

Jeff,

Well, the comment about having something to offer was an opportunity. At that point, I would grab my partner and have a little 1-1 conversation away from the coaches. Talk about the play, come to an agreement, and let him announce the decision. It's his call to change, no matter how bad the call may be.

I've seen partners kick calls. My response is usually, "Hmmmm. Interesting." If my partner wants input, he knows where to find me.

I don't usually move towards an argument/discussion unless I sense an ejection coming. I will make sure that no players or assistants get involved and outnumber my partner, but that's about it. After ejection, I pick-and-roll and get the coach out of there.

--Rich

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I don't usually move towards an argument/discussion unless I sense an ejection coming. I will make sure that no players or assistants get involved and outnumber my partner, but that's about it. After ejection, I pick-and-roll and get the coach out of there.

--Rich

I only was at the discussion, because it was obvious that the coach was not letting the issue go. I wanted to move the game along. Maybe that was not the right thing to do, but the coach was making a huge issue out of my involvement in the call. I do that often and never had had any problem with this in the past. And I usually discuss this in the pregame with my partner. And we discussed this before the game and he had not objection. But that is why I always discuss this, so that we can be on the same page when hell breaks loose.

Peace