yanks/red sox benches cleared

brian43 · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 11, 2003, 05:06pm

if i'm tim mcclelland, Don Zimmer and Pedro are ejected. Pedro provoked it, Zimmer swung at him with his left hand, then Pedro threw him to the ground. i'm very surprised no one got the early exit from that whole situation.

anyone else have any thoughts?

brian43 · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 11, 2003, 06:30pm

wow this game is out of control. a groundscrew member just went in the yankees bull pen and appeared to want to fight Jeff Nelson.

GarthB · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 11, 2003, 10:18pm

Wait for the details on this. There is now a report that Jeff Nelson attacked the groundskeeper when he cheered a Sox play. He allegedly has cleat wounds on his back.

From ESPN:

"A Red Sox spokesman issued a statement later saying that Williams (the grounds keeper) had merely double-pumped to the crowd, and was taken down by members of the Yankees' bullpen. "It seems to be an attack and a beating unwarranted," said the spokesman.

The grounds keeper was taken away in the ambulance to be examined..."

Reportedly the Boston Red Sox have asked MLB to investigate.

[Edited by GarthB on Oct 11th, 2003 at 10:41 PM]

brian43 · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 12, 2003, 07:06pm

yeah i saw the reports later on that day and this morning. i said what i said like 5 min. after it happened and i was going on what the announcers knew and from what preliminary reports were showing, which ended up being wrong.

johnSandlin · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 12, 2003, 09:27pm

I was very shocked as well that nobody got the gate after the bench clearing brawl. However, I can understand what Tim McClelland was thinking when nobody got ejected.

I think the message he was sending to Grady Little and Joe Torre after everything was broken up and people returned to their respective benches was "Nobody is going to get tossed for now, due to the nature of this series, however if anybody gets out of hand again, people will be ejected."

Mind you, I am NOT in any way quoting Tim McClelland, but I am merely speculating what Tim was thinking at the time he was talking to both managers.

Dave Hensley · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 13, 2003, 12:14pm

My thoughts in realtime were ejections of Ramirez and then Zimmer were no-brainer decisions. Ejecting Pedro for the pointing to the head antics would have been a ballsy move, but I knew that wasn't going to happen.

Fox Sports reports today that Pedro was fined $50,000, Ramirez $25,000, Garcia $10,000 and Zimmer $5,000. I'm surprised Garcia drew a fine for the takeout at 2B, and I think Zimmer's fine should have been higher; however, I think it's possible his fine was adjusted for "coach-dollars" rather than "megarich player dollars."

Having read the police report on the 9th inning incident in the Yankees bullpen, it seems pretty clear that Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia were the aggressors, and accelerated the altercation from words to physical violence. The Yankees management's crocodile tears, complaining about the "aura of lawlessness" that was prevalent at the park disgusts me.

I'm encouraged by the heartfelt, emotional apology Zimmer made, and the conciliatory statements that have come from Red Sox management. Nevertheless, it's hard to put the genie back in the battle and I think there are likely still players on both sides who think they "owe" the other team further retaliation.

Jim Porter · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 13, 2003, 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I'm surprised Garcia drew a fine for the takeout at 2B

I don't know why you would be. Rolling block slides into the knees of one's opponent has been frowned upon in Major League Baseball for decades. It is widely known that such a slide can end the career of the fielder, and has a few times. Luckily, Walker had enough time to compensate for Garicia's late slide beyond the base and Walker didn't get hurt. Time that play a little differently and Walker would've been history for Garcia's classless tactic.

johnSandlin · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 12:06pm

I had the opportunity to talk to Scott Ehret(operations manager for Gerry Davis Sports) earlier this week and inquire to him about this game with the benches. He explained it to me this way. What do you think you would do?

Scott Ehret said: "OK, you are Alfonso Marquez(PU) who would you eject?

1. Pedro? His action prompted the warning.
2. Batter from Boston who moved toward Clemens? He did not charge the mound. If he had reached the dirt of the pitcher's mound, then his ejection is auotmatic. Decide to eject him, then you offer explaniation.
3. Clemens? His pitch was not even close.
4. Pedro for tossing a rag doll(Zimmer) to the ground? As ugly as it was, it looked like self defense on Pedro's part. Plus, I wonder if any umpire even saw it happen?
5. Zimmer? Probably most likely for the ejection. After all, he did charge an opponent and did attempt throw a punch.
6. Bullpen? No umpire in his right mind is going to eject a player from the bullpen when some civilian yahoo gets kicked around on the player's turf."

This is exactly word for word from Scott Ehret in email reply back to me. I know at this point, this situation is old news, but with Game 7 tonight and Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez are pitching again tonight, I thought would revisit this game.

Any comments?

Jim Porter · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 02:20pm

Zimmer suffered enough humiliation getting a face full of sod. An ejection simply wasn't warranted.

That grounds crew member who was assaulted by Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia was hardly a "civilian yahoo." He was assigned to that bullpen. He belonged ther. The real question is why does Jeff Nelson get preferential treatment? Two police officers witnessed him initiate the assault. If it were you or me, we would've been put in handcuffs on the spot.

johnSandlin · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 02:59pm

No question about that fact Jim. Yes, you are absolutely 120% correctly in saying if it were you or me, we would be put in handcuffs. We would not of even had the chance to say BOO to the police officers.

However, SportsCent said this morning that Boston Police officials were going to take this as far as they could to see what will happen in this matter.

mo99 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 03:22pm

I think Pedro's obvious cheap shot beanball and inciteful antics following the play definetly warranted an ejection.But the largest fine should have been given to Ramirez without a doubt.He should have been ejected for inciting the bench clearing following a pitch that was high and less than a foot off the plate.That wasnt even close to hitting him!! That pampered so called superstar needs to get a clue.If Clemmons intended to hit him,he would have done so without a doubt.That pitch didnt come close!!And no,I am far from being a Yankees fan but as an umpire,"I call them as I see them."

Jeff

Jim Porter · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 03:48pm

It's amazing to me how many people are sure Pedro was head hunting despite the total lack of common sense in such a charge. There were runners on 2nd and 3rd in the ALCS. That's not the time to throw a beanball. The batter ducks then a run scores moving the other runner to third. That just makes absolutely no baseball sense whatsoever. I believe firmly that he threw inside and it got away from him.

Everyone likes to condemn Pedro, but no one says anything about Karim's Garcia's rolling block slide into Todd Walker's knees. That was the dirtiest tactic I've seen on a baseball diamond since the early 80's.

The threat of ending Todd Walker's career wasn't enough retaliation for the Yankess. Jose Contreras, who makes his money keeping the ball down, also threw a pitch at Kevin Millar's head in that same game. No one mentions that either. It's all Pedro, Pedro, Pedro, and Manny, Manny, Manny. Enough already.

mo99 · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 04:20pm

Jim, Do you think the reaction to a simple high and inside pitch just off the plate by Ramirez was justified?? I could care less about Pedro,I dont think he has the intelligence to realize he had men on base when he threw at Garcia.Throwing behind a hitter,especially at the Major League level,definitely shows his intention.He is classless and always has been since coming up with the Expos.

Jeff

Jim Porter · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mo99
Jim, Do you think the reaction to a simple high and inside pitch just off the plate by Ramirez was justified??

He didn't charge the mound. He was trying to buy Clemens's ejection. It didn't work. Nothing he did warranted ejection. He moved in the direction of the mound cursing. Well, Clemens moved in the direction of home plate cursing. By your standards, they both should be ejected.

mo99 · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 16, 2003, 08:18pm

Sure,by my standards as you say,both participants at the level of ball I umpire(HS and Div III)would have been gone.In the scenerio we are discussing with six umpires watching the development,they should have tossed Ramirez.His overdramatic action resulted in the clearing of both benches which could have resulted in a much more dangerous situation than it did.And no,I do not think Ramirez was trying to buy Clemmons an ejection.That is ridiculous,he is not that smart.

Jeff