D3K, Check Swing Appeal

[tcannizzo]

I am sure this has been discussed more than once, but I have no recollection of it.

Aside from it being an awkward situation, any thoughts on handling this situation differently than too sad, too bad?

0-2 count on B.
Pitch comes in low.
Batter tries to check swing.
PU calls BALL.
C asks PU to appeal check swing.
BU says YES!

C simply tags B, or throws to 1B for an easy out.
Here comes OC.

(This is hypothetical as it did not occur in any of my games)

[RKBUmp]

Not sure how else you can handle it unless you decide on every possibly third strike in the dirt you are automatically going to go to your partner. Its the offenses responsiblity to run on a D3K if they think there is even a possibility they may have swung.

I had almost the exact opposite situation the other night. Working a solo game, pitch is in dirt and batter starts to swing but holds up well short. She takes off for 1st, catcher throws her out easily. I announce I had no attempt at the pitch and call her back, then I get to talk with defensive coach.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I am sure this has been discussed more than once, but I have no recollection of it.

Aside from it being an awkward situation, any thoughts on handling this situation differently than too sad, too bad?

0-2 count on B.
Pitch comes in low.
Batter tries to check swing.
PU calls BALL.
C asks PU to appeal check swing.
BU says YES!

C simply tags B, or throws to 1B for an easy out.
Here comes OC.

(This is hypothetical as it did not occur in any of my games)

Give OC his say, thank him for his input and return to your position behind the plate.

[Andy]

I have heard two schools of thought on this situation:

1. Refuse the request for help and go with the PU call. This is fine in ASA and NFHS, where the umpire is not required to honor the request. It can make you appear as a hard-a** umpire, however and lead to issues later in the game.

2. Don't wait for the request and immediately go to BU for help on the check swing. You may still have a batter standing there in the box who can easily be put out with a tag or throw to first, but at least PU did not contribute to the delay by waiting for a request for help.

I prefer option 2, but it can be an awkward situation either way.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I am sure this has been discussed more than once, but I have no recollection of it.

Aside from it being an awkward situation, any thoughts on handling this situation differently than too sad, too bad?

0-2 count on B.
Pitch comes in low.
Batter tries to check swing.
PU calls BALL.
C asks PU to appeal check swing.BU says YES!

C simply tags B, or throws to 1B for an easy out.
Here comes OC.

(This is hypothetical as it did not occur in any of my games)

I know this is a stupid thing to say, but catchers should be coached to tag the runner BEFORE asking for help on a checked swing. If they think the batter may have checked her swing, she has to make a play anyway. Make it easy - tag her first and ask for help on the checked swing second. If there are runners on base, get the ball into the circle before asking the PU for help on the swing to prevent runners from advancing while you are standing there with the ball waiting for an answer from the base ump.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I have heard two schools of thought on this situation:

1. Refuse the request for help and go with the PU call. This is fine in ASA and NFHS, where the umpire is not required to honor the request. It can make you appear as a hard-a** umpire, however and lead to issues later in the game.

2. Don't wait for the request and immediately go to BU for help on the check swing. You may still have a batter standing there in the box who can easily be put out with a tag or throw to first, but at least PU did not contribute to the delay by waiting for a request for help.

I prefer option 2, but it can be an awkward situation either way.

Personally, I don't accept Option 1 as viable or appropriate. It is our job to call what the players do, not hide from that call because it may be difficult. If the batter didn't check, the defense is fully entitled to that call. I don't see any way around that.

And, if the checked swing appeal wasn't part of the game, well, there wouldn't be rules about it, there wouldn't be a mechanic (remove mask, step out, etc.); it wouldn't be part of the game. But, it is part of the game, and our job is to call what the players do, and rule on an appeal when made.

So, sorry Coach; I'm not asking for a checked swing anytime there is a pitch with two strikes, and I AM going to grant the appeal by the catcher any time I think she isn't making a mockery by appealing when the batter didn't even flinch. IF it is questionable to ME, then my mechanic is to "ball" it and let my partner make the decision, and I will most often not wait for the catcher in that case; but the decision to run or not run when she considers she MAY be in jeopardy is between you and your batter. That's coaching; I umpire.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Personally, I don't accept Option 1 as viable or appropriate. It is our job to call what the players do, not hide from that call because it may be difficult. If the batter didn't check, the defense is fully entitled to that call. I don't see any way around that.

.

Good!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I know this is a stupid thing to say, but catchers should be coached to tag the runner BEFORE asking for help on a checked swing. If they think the batter may have checked her swing, she has to make a play anyway. Make it easy - tag her first and ask for help on the checked swing second. If there are runners on base, get the ball into the circle before asking the PU for help on the swing to prevent runners from advancing while you are standing there with the ball waiting for an answer from the base ump.

Yet we all know umpires who simply won't call the strike if catcher (or PU) doesn't ask immediately, no matter the count or sitch. OTOH - clinicians have said before not to honor this appeal with 2 strikes if it's made so late that the BR was put in undue danger because of the delay.

Tag first, yes.

Throw to pitcher and THEN appeal? Not a good plan.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yet we all know umpires who simply won't call the strike if catcher (or PU) doesn't ask immediately, no matter the count or sitch. OTOH - clinicians have said before not to honor this appeal with 2 strikes if it's made so late that the BR was put in undue danger because of the delay.

Tag first, yes.

Throw to pitcher and THEN appeal? Not a good plan.

The tag has to be there too - tag, return to pitcher, appeal.

[jr131981]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yet we all know umpires who simply won't call the strike if catcher (or PU) doesn't ask immediately, no matter the count or sitch. OTOH - clinicians have said before not to honor this appeal with 2 strikes if it's made so late that the BR was put in undue danger because of the delay.

Tag first, yes.

Throw to pitcher and THEN appeal? Not a good plan.

i dont understand this theory.... lets recap, the batter has 2 strikes, and tries to check her swing, the PU incorrectly rules it a ball, and now the PU is not supposed to get the call right by going to his partner bc a certain length of time has expired? doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of having umpires, to get the calls right?

how about the BR was put in danger bc she swung the bat, the umps are supposed to protect her from danger?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jr131981

i dont understand this theory.... lets recap, the batter has 2 strikes, and tries to check her swing, the PU incorrectly rules it a ball, and now the PU is not supposed to get the call right by going to his partner bc a certain length of time has expired? doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of having umpires, to get the calls right?

how about the BR was put in danger bc she swung the bat, the umps are supposed to protect her from danger?

OK... 2 strikes. Batter tries to check and the ball gets past the catcher. Rolls around a while. Catcher retrieves, throws to pitcher ... and THEN appeals.

[IRISHMAFIA]

What some people overlook, except in NCAA or another org with similar mechanic, is that an umpre should go for help when the umpire believes it is possible some element of the play could have been missed, not because a coach asks you to get help. If you have no doubt that you saw the every element of the play and rendered the proper decision, it is not inappropriate to respectfully decline. If asked, just tell the coach you saw the play/swing and made the appropriate ruling. And, yes, I know a check swing isn't the easiest thing to see, but sometimes it is a no brainer.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by irishmafia

give oc his say, thank him for his input and return to your position behind the plate.

like

[jr131981]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK... 2 strikes. Batter tries to check and the ball gets past the catcher. Rolls around a while. Catcher retrieves, throws to pitcher ... and THEN appeals.

assuming the appeal is going to be ruled a swing, this means the batter swung her bat, theoretically, far enough to be consider a strike. this if there was any doubt in her mind, she should run to 1B.

what im saying is, why the need to protect the batter who 1) swung and 2) made no effort to run to 1B when there is no downside to running

[tcannizzo]

ummm because PU called Ball?