DoubleFoul / FalseDoubleFoul

Grail · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 08:42am

Worked a clinic over the weekend. It was my first experience with a 3-Whistle crew. Had this play in our last game of the day. I'm pretty sure we got it wrong, but wanted some other views.

I am C. A1 drives into the lane from my primary. As he elevates to shoot, B1 grabs A1's arm. TWEET from C. A1 releases the ball and crashes into B2. TWEET from L. L comes running off the baseline signaling charge. C steps forward with fist up.

Ultimately we went with my call from C. A1 went to the line to shoot 2, and play continued from there. Coaches didn't say a word, and our evaluator suggested that L should be slower with his signal. Also suggested that maybe I should have just put my arm down and moved on, even though he thought I had the right call. After going back to the rule book, I think we had a False Double Foul. The grab on A1 was definitely a foul, but it didn't cause the PC foul. I'm thinking A1 goes to the line to shoot 2, lane cleared. B gets the ball on the basline following the free throws.

Any other views?

ChuckElias · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 09:26am

Technically, you had a FDF. And you probably should've administered it that way, since the L made the signal, unless you're willing to give up the foul on B1 and go only with the charge.

Your observer was right. The Lead put your crew in a bad spot by being too quick with a signal. Unless the crash was "Oh, my God!" quality, L should lay off that call.

(And yes, I understand it was the secondary defender, and that the secondary defender is the L's responsibility in that situation. I think the point is still valid, tho. Unless you have to have the crash, L should lay off it.)

rainmaker · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 09:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by Grail
Worked a clinic over the weekend. It was my first experience with a 3-Whistle crew. Had this play in our last game of the day. I'm pretty sure we got it wrong, but wanted some other views.

I am C. A1 drives into the lane from my primary. As he elevates to shoot, B1 grabs A1's arm. TWEET from C. A1 releases the ball and crashes into B2. TWEET from L. L comes running off the baseline signaling charge. C steps forward with fist up.

Ultimately we went with my call from C. A1 went to the line to shoot 2, and play continued from there. Coaches didn't say a word, and our evaluator suggested that L should be slower with his signal. Also suggested that maybe I should have just put my arm down and moved on, even though he thought I had the right call. After going back to the rule book, I think we had a False Double Foul. The grab on A1 was definitely a foul, but it didn't cause the PC foul. I'm thinking A1 goes to the line to shoot 2, lane cleared. B gets the ball on the basline following the free throws.

Any other views?

If you go with both fouls, it's gotta be a False Double, but man, that's tricky, especially at a clinic. I think I'd have gone with the call you did, unless I knew that evaluator very well, and could have predicted his response. I disagree with him completely about letting the first one go. Unless B2 got a knee in the eye, and was blinded for life, I think I'd be more inclined to let the second one go. A1 heard the second whistle, saw the second signal and is now on notice that he can't get away with that. Administering a false double can be so complicated -- keep the game moving, and get on with playing ball.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 09:29am

If you call both fouls, which would have been fine, you would shoot the FTs with no one along the lane. Then B would get the ball for a throw-in along the endline.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 09:49am

FED case book play 4.19.6SitA.

Grail · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 10:00am

I saw the casebook play. Hence my determination of the FDF, but I haven't seen it in a real game situation. Thus I ask for your opinions on how to "really" handle it.

BTW, the advice to just "give-up" my call was only to save face and not have 2 calls. Not really the best way, just to avoid us looking bad.

bigwhistle · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 01:35pm

Naw.....everybody knows that the grab of the arm by the original defender caused the offensive player to crash into the secondary player. Therefore...both fouls should have been on the first defensive player

Actually, going with the first foul only is the prudent thing to do.

alfreedog · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 02:38pm

I do understand that it is a tough call on your part, since it was you first 3-man clinic. But I think you had the call first and in my reading of the R-B the play was dead after your whistle, everything happening after that point is mute. So in that case he could not have had a PC if the play is dead which is was after your whistle. Meaning A1 drives hold occurs, tweet from C play is dead A1 hits B1 center mess L tweets after your tweet play is dead. That is how I would have handle it, the idea of a false double whistle not relevant that's making the game harder then what it has to be.

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by alfreedog
I do understand that it is a tough call on your part, since it was you first 3-man clinic. But I think you had the call first and in my reading of the R-B the play was dead after your whistle, everything happening after that point is mute. So in that case he could not have had a PC if the play is dead which is was after your whistle. Meaning A1 drives hold occurs, tweet from C play is dead A1 hits B1 center mess L tweets after your tweet play is dead. That is how I would have handle it, the idea of a false double whistle not relevant that's making the game harder then what it has to be.

Well, other than the fact that the play isn't dead by rule, ......

You may wanna review the pertinent rule on this one- as to when the ball actually becomes dead. You're completely wrong.

Btw, the word is "moot", not "mute". I just couldn't keep mute on that one.

Grail · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 02:55pm

Play is definitely not dead. Airborne shooter, ball is not dead until the try is good or is definitely a miss. The casebook is almost an exact description of the play we had. I know we got it wrong by definition. Hopefully the next time it occurs my partner will realize there was a double whistle and not come out with a preliminary signal. Fortunately it was summer league and we got away with it. We wouldn't be so lucky during the regular season.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 13, 2005, 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, the word is "moot", not "mute". I just couldn't keep mute on that one.

The best mis-use of this phrase that I ever heard was from "Friends" when Joey says, "Anyway, it's a moo point."

Somebody says, "A moo point?"

Joey, "Yeah. You know. Like a cow's opinion. It's a moo point." I use this in regular conversation. Cracks people up.