Rules of Pivoting

[ajthomps]

My friends and I got into a discussion, and I have a question about pivoting, to which I have not found the answer on any websites or rule books...

Once the pivot foot is established, can they player pivot 360 degrees (all the way around, in a circle). Can the pivot foot even rotate? What is the rule on this. Anyone who knows for sure or has an idea please respond. What do you think?

[Dan_ref]

As long as he keeps the pivot foot on the floor he can go round & round until he gets too dizzy to stand up & falls down.

And then you have a travel.

[ChuckElias]

A player may pivot either direction as far and as many times as he or she wishes, as long as the pivot foot does not move along the floor (in other words, it stays in one spot on the floor).

[ChuckElias]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Caught short again, eh?

[coachgbert]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As long as he keeps the pivot foot on the floor he can go round & round until he gets too dizzy to stand up & falls down.

And then you have a travel.

Wow! You must be have reffed my girls youth teams over the years because that's exaclty how they handle a double team! Pivot until they're dizzy, fall and then scrabble on the floor until a jump ball or travel is called. Thankfully it seems to subside with age and a little more skill.

Coach G

[ysong]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As long as he keeps the pivot foot on the floor he can go round & round until he gets too dizzy to stand up & falls down.

And then you have a travel.

I have some questions about traveling too. I have searched some casebooks and almost all rulebooks, NCAA, FIBA, NBA, HS, you name it, but still can not find any rules that explicitly addree this move:

a player picked up his dribble and pivoted back and forth a couple times, then he tried to make a big step toward the basket. but because he wanted to cover a big distance with this step, instead of stepping (at least one foot on the floor at any given time), he in fact noticeably jumpped off his pivot foot before his non-pivot foot touched the floor, then he moved along and jumped off his non-pivot foot and made a basket, before his pivot foot ever touched the floor again.

So would you help me on this: which particular rule states or implies this "one jump with the ball" move is indeed illegal?

another similar move is during a "smooth looking" lay up: while moving, a player started the layup by picking up his dribble when his left (back) foot still touched the floor and before his right (front) foot landed. then his right foot down and he jumpped right off it, landed on left foot and jumpped off it, released the ball while in the air.

Technically, do you believe this player traveled even though the move looked very smooth? (regardless if you want to call the violation or not)

Thanks.

[deecee]

part 2 is a travel -- but a player with the ball and pivot foot established can pick up that pivot foot and it not be a travel assuming he either (a) passes or (b) shoots the ball before that foot comes back down.

Thats how the good ol up and under works. As for picking up his pivot foot and jumping forward -- thats a travel -- you cannot jump and not pass or shoot unless its a legal jump stop which this is not.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
A player may pivot either direction as far and as many times as he or she wishes, as long as the pivot foot does not move along the floor (in other words, it stays in one spot on the floor).

Remember that the pivot foot can't slide. This goes for any time a dribble isn't in effect, such as on a shot or pass. If the pivot foot slides before the ball is released, it's a travel.

[ysong]

Originally posted by deecee
part 2 is a travel -- but a player with the ball and pivot foot established can pick up that pivot foot and it not be a travel assuming he either (a) passes or (b) shoots the ball before that foot comes back down.

Thats how the good ol up and under works. As for picking up his pivot foot and jumping forward -- thats a travel -- you cannot jump and not pass or shoot unless its a legal jump stop which this is not.

Thanks, Deecee.

In part 1, I know it is travel, but I really want to find the rules that state or imply so. Could you think of any rules that make this move illegal?

[deecee]

if a player jumps with the ball and lands without shoointg, passing or a defender knocking the ball lose are gaining simultaneous possesion of the ball what would you call -- up and down or travel -- he essentially jumped and didn't get rid of the ball before he landed -- basic travel call.

In most games i go by a simple rule -- no matter how smooth the play went, unless the guy with the ball is just an amazing athlete, if he covers so much ground where i have to double take and ask myself is that possible -- there is a 99% chance it was a travel. Most players young and old just dont have the footwork to go about 15 - 20 feet off one dribble or a spinmove. or once he picks up his dribble take into account which foot is on the floor when he does that and if that foot gets picked up he better not have the ball when it gets put back down. The only time I would overlook that half step if the player is attacking the basket and he doesn't use that extra half step to gain an advantage by going around somebody -- but if hes going in a straight line to the basket i let it go.

then again im usually rather liberal with my travels -- it has to be clearly advantage gained or just a ridculously obvious travel for me to call it --

Which after i saw that video where the guy switched pivot and travelled again -- i would not have called that -- his defender gave him ample space to pivot and wasnt guarding him to tight so why interupt the game where the ball handler didnt get an advantage -- also he immediatly attacked the basket and did travel slightly again -- but it looked like a good matchup between defender and offender so let them play -- make the defense play defense and reward them. but then again when it comes to travelling im very liberal.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by deecee
In most games i go by a simple rule -- no matter how smooth the play went, unless the guy with the ball is just an amazing athlete, if he covers so much ground where i have to double take and ask myself is that possible -- there is a 99% chance it was a travel.

That's a bad rule, DC. Ask almost any assignor and they will tell you, don't guess. If you are not sure that it was a travel, then it wasn't. This will be particularly important as the players you officiate increase in skill level. Why? Because that move that you're sure an 8th-grader could never pull off is taught and practiced at the varsity level and is done legally in games.

Here's a better rule for you to follow: Identify the pivot foot on every possession.

[deecee]

the games i have seen even the varsity ones have been very low skill so far -- which is why im trying to transition to coaching as i have reffed to many horrible high school games in too short a time -- i started reffing for fun and now after horrible game after horrible game it feels like a job -- i just hope i can land this jv gig in town.

then i guess ill be on the receiving end of the T rather than the administring side

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by deecee

then again im usually rather liberal with my travels -- it has to be clearly advantage gained or just a ridculously obvious travel for me to call it --

Wel, you got a great future in the NBA ahead of you.

Could have a lot of problems in high school ball though.

[deecee]

that's what both my mentors have told me --