Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey
We agree it's a violation (and perhaps that's good enough for 99% of us), but I maintain it can't be an illegal dribble, because the definition of dribble wasn't met in the first place. You can't have an illegal anything unless the definition of the "anything" is satisfied. (For example, there's no illegal contact without contact.)
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You have it backwards.
If you don't meet the definition of "anything" you have performed an illegal "anything". If you met the definition of an "anything", that, by definition, means it was legal.
You can have either legal contact or illegal contact, however. Illegal contact is contact that is not don't within the legal range of contact.
An illegal dribble is an action that, in most ways, fits the act of a legal dribble but has some element that does not....making it an illegal dribble. (Or is a drible at a time when it is not permitted---after the player has already dribbled). It just so happens that we give one of them a specific name (carry/palm) even though it doesn't need on since it is really the ending an restarting of a 2nd dribble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey
Yes, touching the ball twice is indeed illegal while dribbling. Looking at that, let's say A-1 stands flat footed, tosses the ball up with his left hand, and while remaining flat-footed, catches the ball with his right. Is this a violation? Is this an illegal dribble? The ball was touched twice before hitting floor, but I say no violation, and certainly not an illegal dribble. The touched-twice rule only works when the dribble has begun.
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And I think that is why the referenced case play was changed to traveling instead of an illegal dribble.....that the movement of the feet is the defining factor.