Failure to Slide

TwoBits

PeteBooth wrote

Also, if you go strictly by this wording you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.

Pete Booth

The complete rule is:

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go aroundor seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher.

My interpretation and the way it should be explained to coaches is that a runner has three choices:
1) Slide
2) Go around
3) Seek to avoid contact

It's not a runner "must slide" every time.

ozzy6900

mbyron wrote
Oz, that's not correct either. Sliding directly into a catcher blocking the plate could hardly be interpreted as trying to avoid contact, yet it is perfectly legal under these safety rules.

You're right MB! See even a seasoned umpire can't write a rule about having a runner slide! So why are people trying write this $hit all the time! 😮

PeteBooth

TwoBits wrote
PeteBooth wrote
The complete rule is:

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go aroundor seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher.

My interpretation and the way it should be explained to coaches is that a runner has three choices:
1) Slide
2) Go around
3) Seek to avoid contact

It's not a runner "must slide" every time.

I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

David B

PeteBooth wrote
TwoBits wrote
I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

Pete,

Sadly you're correct. Give it a few more years and if there is contact on the field someone will expect a call.

Lawsuits will eventually ruin the game of baseball as we knew it when we were growing up.

Combine the mentality we played with, "if he's in the way run over him" with the rule changes of today and kids can't help but be confused.

Thanks
David

PeteBooth

David B wrote
PeteBooth wrote
Lawsuits will eventually ruin the game of baseball as we knew it when we were growing up.

Combine the mentality we played with, "if he's in the way run over him" with the rule changes of today and kids can't help but be confused.

Thanks
David

David IMO you are right-on about insurance companies ruining amateur baseball.

Do not know about the rest of the country but in my area HS baseball is "low on the totum poll" when it comes to budget allotment.

Without all these safety rules (and they seem to be modified each and every year) the schools could not afford the insurance costs, hence the rules have been 'watered down"

I envy the baseball officials from my generation. basically all they had to do was show up and call the game balls / strikes / safes and outs. The game was policed BY US and none of this checking of equipment.

Also, when I played even if you were 100% correct we could not argue with an official. if we did the coach sat us down. He was the Only one who would go out and question an official.

Pete Booth

TwoBits

USSSA does have one up on local league rules. "Seek to avoid contact" gives the umpire control to use his judgement, and if I believe the runner was trying to avoid contact, then he's going to be okay. Local leagues and their "must slide" rule eliminates that option.

The bottom line is to avoid malicious contact and not have 11 year olds attempt a violent home plate collision like they see on TV.

Interested Ump

PeteBooth wrote
TwoBits wrote
I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.
Pete Booth

"All kinds of problems" for whom? Umpires? So what?

The rule is there to meet insurance regulations/guidelines and if this makes your life difficult, then go call MiLB. I tire of hearing the constant whine from umpires about how rules interps makes tier lives soooooo troblesome. I have a clue for all of you.

It's going to get worse than better.

Best you GTF up and deal with the realities, adults for many years tauaght kids to play baseball like football. The injuries and fatalities mounted until there haad to b something done. Now that these rules are being implemented, Pete here claims they create "all kinds of problems".

The problems are not the rules, they are Pete Booth.

HokieUmp

Interested Ump wrote
I have a clue for all of you.

It's going to get worse than better.

I don't disagree with that.

Interested Ump wrote
Best you GTF up and deal with the realities, adults for many years tauaght kids to play baseball like football. The injuries and fatalities mounted until there haad to b something done.

I don't if the problem really is Pete Booth, as you go on to say, but I wonder about that last sentence.

I've only been back in the States for about 14 months, now, but "fatalities mounted" ??? What, was there some kind of Jericho-like apocalypse I didn't hear about?

Kids have been killed, this much I know, but from line drives to the chest and head, usually. Is that somehow the fault of Evil Coaching? "Hit that ball in this way, son, so it stops his heart on contact."

Have you got numbers or anything on this subject?

Welpe

HokieUmp wrote
Have you got numbers or anything on this subject?

Just consider the source...

Rich Ives

Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

How can a tag play be evident if F2 doesn't have the ball?

PeteBooth

Rich Ives wrote
Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

How can a tag play be evident if F2 doesn't have the ball?

The definition of evident is not "F2 has the ball". By evident I interpret to mean the old FED terminolgy "imminent in nature" If the USSSA houserule did mean "A fileder has possession of the ball" then that's how they should have worded it.

Also, a runner does not have only 3 choices as was mentioned in the USSSA rule. They can come in "standing up", however, if you go by their "house rule" that is not one of the options.

Personally (and FED is now doing this somewhat) is go by the NCAA ruling concerning collisions. Collision un-avoidabe - play on Collission avoidable then penalize. IMO, FED will also adopt this type language in the years to come.

You cannot take "contact" out of baseball.

Pete Booth

Rich Ives

PeteBooth wrote
The definition of evident is not "F2 has the ball". By evident I interpret to mean the old FED terminolgy "imminent in nature" If the USSSA houserule did mean "A fileder has possession of the ball" then that's how they should have worded it.

Also, a runner does not have only 3 choices as was mentioned in the USSSA rule. They can come in "standing up", however, if you go by their "house rule" that is not one of the options.

Personally (and FED is now doing this somewhat) is go by the NCAA ruling concerning collisions. Collision un-avoidabe - play on Collission avoidable then penalize. IMO, FED will also adopt this type language in the years to come.

You cannot take "contact" out of baseball.

Pete Booth

My interpretation would be that it isn't about "evident", it's about "tag play". No ball, no play. Similar to the LL rule that only kicks in if the fielder actually has the ball.

PeteBooth

Rich Ives wrote
My interpretation would be that it isn't about "evident", it's about "tag play". No ball, no play. Similar to the LL rule that only kicks in if the fielder actually has the ball.

Rich your answer is the point. Your interpretation would be different from mine so on an so forth.

At least LL's rule is SPECIFIC the USSSA rule is not it's vague in nature

Pete Booth

DG

PeteBooth wrote
If you want to explain the rule to an 11 yr. old then explain by example. If you can get a tape of what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse, then show it to him and say

You CANNOT do that or any other violent collission we had in the past regarding plays at the plate.

I have two great videos of maliciouis collision at the plate, one when my son (the catcher) was 10 and another when we was 11. These were in Bambino games (Babe Ruth Ripken division was formerly called Babe Ruth Bambino division) at a time when Babe Ruth did not have a malicious contact rule. I wrote Babe Ruth baseball on the subject and included the videos. A couple years later the rule was added to all divisions. I will never know if my letter and videos had any impact on that decision but I hope they did.

11 year olds can definitely be taught what not to do even without videos. By nature they want to avoid malicious contact. They would have to be coached to do it. Teaching them not to do it is easy..

kylejt

It all started when they mandating that all players wear helmets. Idiots. It all went downhill from there.

Man, I'm not looking forward to getting old, grumpy and stupid.

DG

kylejt wrote
It all started when they mandating that all players wear helmets. Idiots. It all went downhill from there.

What rule set mandates all players wear helmets?

🙂

kylejt

PeteBooth wrote

Do not know about the rest of the country but in my area HS baseball is "low on the totum poll" when it comes to budget allotment.

Pete Booth

That's because that's the place where many umpires start. I was watching a freshman game, and the PU had his feet set in concrete. Never moved from behind the dish to make any call. Taking his mask off was a huge effort, and rarely done.

But what do you expect? Who else can work games at 3pm on a weekday? Hobos, i.e. the low rung on the totum pole.

I hate all this safety stuff too. Helmets! Once they mandated helmets on kids, it all went to HE!! I tell you!

Man, I'm not looking forward to getting old, grumpy, myopic and stupid.

GarthB

kylejt wrote
It all started when they mandating that all players wear helmets. Idiots. It all went downhill from there.

Man, I'm not looking forward to getting old, grumpy and stupid.

Getting? 😀

Rich

PeteBooth wrote
The definition of evident is not "F2 has the ball". By evident I interpret to mean the old FED terminolgy "imminent in nature" If the USSSA houserule did mean "A fileder has possession of the ball" then that's how they should have worded it.

Also, a runner does not have only 3 choices as was mentioned in the USSSA rule. They can come in "standing up", however, if you go by their "house rule" that is not one of the options.

Personally (and FED is now doing this somewhat) is go by the NCAA ruling concerning collisions. Collision un-avoidabe - play on Collission avoidable then penalize. IMO, FED will also adopt this type language in the years to come.

You cannot take "contact" out of baseball.

Pete Booth

God, I read that and I wonder how I cope year upon year.

I know: I just call the freaking games and I don't worry about it.

Saturday I had my first games. Pitcher licks hand, goes to the ball, steps on the rubber. Ball 1. Easy.

Obstruction? Even easier this year than before. I'll call it just how they want it.

Why wring your hands over it? Just call the game.

fitump56

HokieUmp wrote
I don't disagree with that.

I don't if the problem really is Pete Booth, as you go on to say, but I wonder about that last sentence.

I've only been back in the States for about 14 months, now, but "fatalities mounted" ??? What, was there some kind of Jericho-like apocalypse I didn't hear about?

Kids have been killed, this much I know, but from line drives to the chest and head, usually. Is that somehow the fault of Evil Coaching? "Hit that ball in this way, son, so it stops his heart on contact."

Have you got numbers or anything on this subject?

Sure did. Posted in a new thread, got deleted. Take it up with the mystery deldeter since Jenkins isn't doing it.

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