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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) NCAA rule 4-29-3(f)2--"A flagrant non-contact technical foul is an infraction that involves extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive contact." Also note that NCAA rule 10-4-1 is a catch-all clause. It states "committing an unsporting act, including but not limited to the following:" Again, note the "not limited to." Are you really trying to say that bench technicals during a dead ball can't be flagrant in nature? Also, you and your D1 counterparts may be surprised to find that 4-29-3(f) is labeled "Flagrant technical foul-DEAD BALL." Unsporting action by a coach that is deemed flagrant can be called at any time during an official's jurisdiction. Sooooooo, yes, I sureashell do disagree with you on this one.
Again, trying to say that the exact same act can be flagrant in nature during a live ball but not during a dead ball is completely ridiculous.
And let me give you another little piece of advice. Stating that numerous, un-named and anonymous D1 officials agree with you doesn't really advance the veracity of your claims. You can try to big-time it, but that won't work unless people actually believe you. Or agree with you. And stating that you're a D1 Womens official doesn't really impress me either, if that was your intent. Let your own arguments do your talking unless you're willing to name sources that can be checked. Your sources can be just as wrong as you.
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Round and round we go where we stop nobody knows!!! First let me say that I wasn't "BIG TIMING," anybody. My statement was to MTD who asked and also said that @ the DI level there has been some bulletins addressing profanity in team huddles.
I really don't care if you believe who/if I talked to anybody else. I did for the simple reason to see what other officials both @ the DI and lower levels thought. I'm not going to give you names of other officials on a national forum, so that you can check out the validity of the sources. They weren't intended to be sources rather just other officials with an opinion.
If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!
Rule 10-4-1 "......but not limited to..." Penalty DIRECT TECHNICAL FOUL!!! Its one or the other. If its going to be a Bench Flagrant then that falls under Art. 8 & 9. (You just clarified why this would be a Bench T and not a Flagrant)
The comment to his player is Unsportsmanlike..I agree!!! Always have!!! If the player doesn't act on the comment then it's nothing more the a Bench T.
If the ball is live or dead for that matter and he tells his player to punch and the player Punch's, different story. The difference in the two comments is that one was a comment without any action (unsporting) and the other was a comment with action (Flagrant personnel or technical), which would be defined as fighting.... One happened while the ball is live Flagrant personnel, while the ball is dead Flagrant T.
4-26-4 " When during a confrontation, an individual uses unsportsmanlike acts or comments which, in the opinion of the official, provoke the other individual to retaliate by fighting, it shall be fighting..."
Coaches comments provoked the kid to fight so then both the coach and the player would be ejected.
If its just a unsporting comment then it can't be flagrant unless it instigates a fight. Its just simply penalized under Rule 10-4-1 "Committing a unsportsmanlike act..."
To toss the coach with a Flagrant T on just the comment and justifying it with Rule 4-29-3f is a stretch maybe/maybe not. However the Bench T under Rule 10-4-1 is right on and can't be argued, it was unsportsmanlike!!!
Well JR we both know that we aren't going to agree on this. I'm OK with that. If it happens to you or me, and I hope it doesn't for both our sakes, then you handle your way and I will handle it mine. Thats my opinion & I'm sticking to it!
