Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
"If the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag." At least we now have something to go by, Bob. However, that opens up another can of worms. In the last play on my original post (I see that I had erroneously said R2 on 2B, but by the description of the play, he was obviously on 1B), both R2 and B3 missed bases to which they were forced. However, at least according to Roger G, the ORDER of the appeals is crucial--the defense must first appeal 2B and then 1B. If they first appeal 1B, then the force at 2B is OFF. If Roger is correct, the fact that R1 was forced AT THE TIME HE MISSED THE BAG is irrelevant.
Other worms are also crawling out of other cans.
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Greymule:
Am I beginning to understand why you chose the "mule" as part of your handle? (grin)
The order of appeals IS important, according to an interpretation by the entire staff of minor league baseball.
But it's important when BOTH outs are gained on appeal. Appeal the preceding runner and then the following runner: Force remains in effect. Appeal the following runner and then the preceding runner. Force is not in effect. Note: Neither out occured BEFORE the runner missed a force base. So, it's only by official interpretation of PBUC that the order counts AFTER continuing action is over.
That's a side issue, which you should not allow to cloud your thinking about the FED case plays.
The "order of appeals" is NOT relevant to either of the situations you quoted.
Step by step:
Situation K:
Runner from third scores.
Runner from second (misses third and) scores.
Defense turns a 6-4-3 double play.
When the runner from first (following runner) was thrown out at second, that OUT occurred (so the play says) BEFORE R2 could reach third base.
So, when the runner from second DID NOT TOUCH THE BASE, he was not forced to touch it. He could have, in fact, turned right around and retreated to second.
Since he missed a base to which he was NOT forced, when he is appealed, his out for the third out is NOT a force out.
Therefore, the runner from third DOES score.
Got that?
If you have that, then you can certainly see that in Situation H no runner was retired on the bases before R2 missed third.
So, even though a following runner was retired before the runner from second was retired, the following runner was not retired before the runner from second missed third. That means the force situation was still in effect when he missed the base. That means his out (the third out) came on a force out.
Therefore, the runner from third does NOT score.
Got that?
The rest, as they say, is muy facil.
As for Bob's and Steve's explanations, I haven't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.
Everything hinges on this one issue: What was the state of the base at the time the runner missed it?
Force base? Force out. Run can't score.
Not a force base? Not a force out. Run can score.
It's too easy for words.
[Edited by Carl Childress on Mar 7th, 2002 at 12:20 PM]