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Originally Posted by jimpiano
The ball is live in both cases and the batter/runner is forced to first base .
Rule 8 -7 g
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While I happen to agree that B/R to first should be termed a force, and the definition fixed to make it so, it's not a force Jim. Thats another convo.
Regardless, thats not my scenario, which is a b/r retired before reaching first base which is CLEARLY not a force and the rule book is very clear on this in more than one area.