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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Humor me anyway, ScrappyDoo. Using your argument above, how would you handle the play now under NCAA rules? You've got an IW on a live ball that was last touched in-bounds by Memphis, but there never was any player or team control established. AP?
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There was team control established. Team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in NCAA. Team control doesn't end until the ball is controlled by the opposite team or released on a shot attempt.
Since the discussions seems to have shifted to this thread, here are my posts from the other thread for discussion.
I know I'm beating a dead horse (or at least a badly limping horse), but the only problem I still have with this is best explained through another hypothetical. With B face-guarding in the backcourt after a made basket, A1 passes to A2 at the middle of the FT line. B1 not seeing the ball tips it with his outstreached hand and it rolls all the way to other end of the court and goes OOB under A's basket. The C for some reason blows his whistle and raises an open hand only a moment after B1 contacts the ball.
Here is where I will put in different options to help me decipher how the original play should be handled. (A)The pass was thrown hard enough that no player from either team would have a chance at recovering the ball (I know this isn't likely given the ball has to bounce 3/4 of the court) or (B) both teams would have had a chance to play the ball but quit on the whistle or (C) A3 or B2 give chase to the ball. Given these scenarios occur in NCAA with a table-side monitor present how do we handle the timing under each of these clock situations (i) the clock does start on the contact with the ball by B1 and is stopped at the whistle, or (ii) the clock properly starts on the contact and stops when the ball goes OOB, or (iii) the clock never starts.
I know this is a bundle, there are some people already frustrated with this thread, and most will say none of these situations is equal to the original, but I'm trying to use a deductive strategy to foster some deep thought, because at the end of the day I was a philosophy major in college and as my wife tells me I like making things more difficult than needs be.
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BTW, my answers to the various scenarios go as follows:
Ai - No timing error, continue with A's ball closest to the spot the ball was at when the whistle sounded (POI).
Aii - A timing error has occured, according to NCAA Rule 5.9.1c the clock is to be stopped when the official signals a violation. The courtside monitor should be used to determine when the clock should have been stopped according to this rule. The ball should be given to A at POI.
Aiii - A timing error has occured, the courtside monitor can be used to rectify the error based on when the clock should have started and should have stopped again based on Rule 5.9.1c. (this I feel is closest to the original situation). Ball to A at the POI.
B and C - I feel that how both teams reacted to the play is not relavent to how this situation should be handled and thus defer to my above answers for B and C situations.
We can talk about ignoring the whistle all day long, but the way I saw it was the T was certainly signaling a violation (OOB). As such the clock should properly be stopped at the point of the signal according to Rule 5.9.1c. I'm pretty sure this included a whistle since hand in the air and air in the whistle are like instinctual reactions for me and go hand in hand, as I'm sure is the case with most officials. It is important to remember Rule 2.2.2 and 2.2.3 when considering how to handle the signal and whistle. We cannot just ignore the whistle and signal because to do so would be to set aside 5.9.1c and rule 2.2.2 and 2.2.3 say we can't set aside another rule or the decision of another official. It was the T's decision to signal OOB and thus we can't set that aside regardless of whether he was right or wrong.
If somebody is interpreting it that the signal wasn't made until the ball touched someone OOB then sure everything was done according to how it should have, I just saw it as the signal came as soon as the ball hit the ground.
Furthermore, I've changed my stance on the stopwatch. The rules to call for a stopwatch to be placed tableside for the use of timing TO's. Not sure it was intended for the way it was used last night, but that's where 2.3 comes in.
In the end it comes down to the question of do we get it right or do we do it by the rules. NCAA Rule 2.2.1 seems to say we do second.