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Originally posted by blindzebra
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Originally posted by rwest
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Originally posted by blindzebra
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Originally posted by rwest
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Originally posted by blindzebra
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Originally posted by rwest
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Originally posted by rwest
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
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The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble.
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Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.
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Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.
Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).
The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.
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The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.
If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out.
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I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.
I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.
[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM]
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The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY.
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I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:
Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).
This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.
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Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.
When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.
This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.
Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?
Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?
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Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?
How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.
So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.
The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:
A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.
[/B]
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You are seriously overthinking this. There are two DIFFERENT violations here. Palming, which is the rule you are quoting, is an illegal dribble. You are trying to apply this to a double dribble, which is an illegal SECOND dribble.
If a player crosses over and palms the ball it is a violation when they put the ball back on the floor for PALMING/CARRYING.
If they end the dribble with both hands or CLEARLY with one, releasing the ball to the floor is not a violation, touching it again is and that is an illegal second dribble, with an illegal dribble signal. [/B][/QUOTE]
I just looked at the 2004-05 Simplified & Illustrated book at the case we've been talking about (4-15-4b). Although, it backs up everything I've said thus far in that the dribble had ended and that the violation is called when the player pushes the ball to the floor and not when the player touches the ball again, the violation is not an illegal dribble as I was thinking. Its as you said palming/carry the ball. The illustration even shows the palming/carry signal.