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Old Sun Dec 26, 2004, 03:51am
Carl Childress Carl Childress is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Reed
Quote:
Originally posted by Carl Childress
Here's another problem I'd like comments on before I ship off the BRD:

Pretty standard stuff. J/R puts it this way: "If a runner has obviously left early or failed to retouch his base, his attained base at the time of the throw is not used to measure the award. Rather, his award is measured from his occupied base — where he was at the time of the pitch." (non-italicized explication [standard pro interpretation], p. 57)

The 2004 version of J/R seems to replace the sentence: "Rather, his award...." with the similar wording "Hence, such runner's occupied base (from which the award would originate) is the time-of pitch (or retouch) base (see example 9 below).

"Example 9 :
R1, one out, hit and run. The stealing runner, believing there are two outs, continues toward third base after a fly ball is batted to right field. The right fielder catches the ball, but his throw to first gets by and rolls into a dugout: even though R1 is past second at TOT, first base is acknowledged as the occupied base a TOT, and R1 is awarded third base."

Page 57 is in the multi-base award section. Now check out an example on page 71 in the appeals section:

"Once a batted ball is caught, a runner is vulnerable to a retouch appeal if
(1) he has not retouched. Hence, a runner is out if the retouch appeal precedes the retouch.

(2) he has failed to retouch, the ball becomes dead and he then proceeds to touch or pass an advance base.

EG: R1, one out. R1, thinking there are two outs, continues running past second base as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The right fielder catches the ball and throws toward first for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between second and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return to touch first base, second base and third base in accepting his award."

1. The two examples are essentially the same, yet the stated or implied results are different. I consider J/R to be inconsistent in this case. (It also seems odd that they illustrate a rule with a negative example.)

2. To my eye, the ruling of the second example matches the MLBUM ruling.

3. I have little doubt that the MLBUM shows the correct ruling: it matches how I read the rules.

4. But the J/R pg 57 award saves time and and seems so practical. At the MLB level, you can either award third directly, or carry out a charade in which the runner ends up at third. No MLB coach will allow his runner to mistakenly go to home-- if the failure to retouch is "obvious." And I'm having trouble envisioning a non-obvious failure to retouch situation in which a runner is past second at the moment the ball goes dead following the catch of a fly ball.

5. In a game played at less than 90 feet, an umpire should follow pg 57, 'cause the players surely won't know the rules regarding awards, and will unhesitantly accept the voice of authority-- and the initial award. It's going to be ugly if a a successful appeal follows.

So I think the MLBUM ruling confirms that the award is by rule 2 bases from TOT, however the runner is subject to appeal if he accepts the award. Viewed practically, it shouldn't be neccessary to oblige the runner to actually return to first. At the professional level, given that action is relaxed during a dead ball, the offense, defense, and even a few fans will have time to realize that the runner is going to end up at third. There is minimal possibility of a base running error or the defense only recognizing the failure to retouch through an award of third base. Of course, in some other situation, in which the failure to retouch isn't obvious, the award needs to be two bases from TOT.

Dave Reed
Sorry to rain on your parade, but Rick says "No." The award is always from TOP when the runner leaves obviously.

Play: Speedy R1 tags on a fly ball to deepest right center field. When F9 falls down, he heads for third. He touches second, after which the fielder launches a throw that goes dead. This award will be time of the throw, and the runner will be awarded home. He MAY have left early, but he wasn't off with the pitch (obviously).

See the difference?

All the material about being vulnerable to appeal is not in question.

I guess I didn't make myself clear: The MLBUM simply says: If the runner is past second, award him home. "You - home plate!" In 50 plus years I never saw or heard of that.

You tell that to someone in an MSBL game, he goes home, they appeal, you call him out? I hope you have good insurance.
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