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Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
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Now, lets look at the original play in a different way. Lets assume that the officials did not see B6 illegally enter the court and did not realize that Team B did not have six players on the court, until B6 blocked A1's field goal attempt at the buzzer. The only infraction that can be penalized is Team B having six players on the court.
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Care to cite a rule or case book play that will back up your opinion above, Mark? If B6 hadda punched A1, would your same opinion still hold? [/B]
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Jurassic Referee:
I don't have my rules books in front of me because my basketball rules briefcases (see posts by Chuck and Dan) are still up in the attic, but I do not have to quote a rule to tell you that if you discover Team B playing with six players, you do not charge B6 with a technical foul for illegal entry and Team B with a technical foul for having six players participating on the court at the same time. How do I know? There is not one basketball official here that has not had at least one game in his/her career where he/she has discovered a team playing with six players and each and every time that has happened we all have only charged the team with a technical foul for having too many players on the court; there were no other technical fouls involved.
If B6 had punched A1, then I would have two separate fouls, a technical foul against Team B for too many players on the court and one for the flagrant foul by B6 for punching A1.
[/B][/QUOTE]Mark, so you're telling me that if B6 interferes with the play by punching A1, you'd call that another, separate "T"- but if B6 instead interfered with the play by blocking a shot, you wouldn't call a "T" for that act at all? What's your logic on that? They're both separate, unsporting acts that are completely different from the other act of having too many players on the floor. You're not being very consistent in calling it one way under one circumstance, and a completely different way under a slightly different circumstance.
As for not having your books handy, please let me refresh your memory- NFHS rules- NCAA are basically the same:
- Rule 10-4-1(g)-
"Bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to acts of conduct such as team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench....".
- Rule 10-4-2--
"Bench personnel shall not enter the court unless by permission to attend an injured player".
- Rule 10-1-6--
"A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously".
- Rule 10-4-1-
"Bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul". That one leaves just about anything up to the official's judgement as to whether an act is unsporting or not.
Mark, please note that B6 committed all of those acts listed above, and in sequence. There is nothing in the book that I know of that states that you CAN'T charge B6 with a T" for three of these acts (6 on the floor being a team "T"), as you are trying to aver. I believe that something similar to that was pointed out to me by an official that once called 3 separate "T"s on a play where A1 jumped off of A2's back, and then dunked the ball. Iow, there's nothing in the rules that will say that your opinion is correct, and that Snaq's and Ref18's aren't. The play simply isn't covered in the rules. Camron's position of using R2-3 to award 3 points and call a "T" on B6 is just as valid and defensible as any other opinion that has been given so far also.
All I know is that I'm gonna come up with something on this play that will ensure that team A will not be disadvantaged in any way by B6's act, and that B6's butt is gonna also get run out of the game for giving me a headache in the first place. And as the play isn't specifically covered in the rules, there are different ways to accomplish that objective while covering my butt at the same time.
[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 25th, 2004 at 10:21 AM]