[Steve M]

Originally posted by greymule
All codes, both BB & SB, if the batter-runner has been put out, no runners may then be forced out, by definition.

Of course this is true, Roger, for straightforward plays. However, in baseball, outs at missed bases can still be considered force outs after the batter has been put out. In ASA, they cannot.

Example:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles gets a hit down the RF line. Abel scores. Baker goes to 3B but misses 2B. Charles is thrown out at 2B. The defense successfully appeals Baker missing 2B. In OBR, Fed, and NCAA baseball, Baker's out is considered a force play, because he was forced at 2B either at the time he missed the base (Fed, OBR) or at the time the play began (NCAA). (See the BRD for a full explanation.) In ASA, Charles's out at 2B removes the force on Baker. In baseball, Abel's run doesn't count. In ASA, it does.

Similarly, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles doubles but misses 1B. Baker misses 2B on the way to 3B. The defense first appeals Charles missing 1B and then appeals Baker missing 2B. In baseball, Abel's run does not count. Regardless of the order of appeals, both outs are force outs (or, technically, the BR before reaching 1B). In ASA, the out on Charles removes the force on Baker, and Abel's run would count.

The "crazy play" I had in mind was something like what Mike described.

[Edited by greymule on Sep 15th, 2003 at 02:49 PM]

My books are still in the van and I'm feeling lazy enough that I don't want to go check them. However, I do have the softball rules differences book on the 'puter and this type of play is not listed as differing between Fed & ASA. More and more, Fed is moving closer to ASA's rulings and standards - and they should. In baseball, there is no national governing body. But in softball, ASA is the national governing body. ASA, Fed, and NCAA are moving closer with each year's rulebooks and interps - they have each been sitting on the others' rules committees for at least the past 4 years.

Steve M