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Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 03:26pm
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Fair Catch & Punt Return

http://www.obsessedwithfootball.com/...PuntReturn.mp4

The people invloved with this game are raising cane that the covering official blew the call and let play continue. I agree but what do you think about the fair catch signal. By what I see in the play it is an invalid fair catch signal and a flag should be on the ground. Thoughts?
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 03:51pm
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I think you could say that the fair catch signal was invalid due to not waving. Can't see what was done before he comes into the film. If all he did was what is seen on the film flag for invalid fair catch signal. You should also flag for delay of game for running after a valid or invalid fair catch signal. Referee is going to fall on his butt one of these days running backwards also.

Last edited by Ed Maeder; Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:59pm.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNStripes
http://www.obsessedwithfootball.com/...PuntReturn.mp4

The people invloved with this game are raising cane that the covering official blew the call and let play continue. I agree but what do you think about the fair catch signal. By what I see in the play it is an invalid fair catch signal and a flag should be on the ground. Thoughts?
Invalid fair catch signal. Play should have been whistled dead when the ball was caught.

You should always remind the player in position to return on how to give a fair catch signal.

My question to the crew was why did they let the play continue, the runner gave himself up.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 06:40pm
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It's either an invalid signal and a dead ball or a valid signal with a potential PF on K and a dead ball. No way it's a TD, that's for sure. As for the delay call...it's pretty hard to call that if the officials don't kill the play.

Last edited by Mike L; Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 06:43pm.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 06:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L
It's either an invalid signal and a dead ball or a valid signal with a potential PF on K and a dead ball. No way it's a TD, that's for sure. As for the delay call...it's pretty hard to call that if the officials don't kill the play.
I played back that signal a number of times and my observation was invalid as the receiver did a swipe of the arm once. A valid signal requires the potential receiver to extend the arm and wave it side to side.

Without a valid signal you are hard pressed to call a PF unless the whistle had blown and it appears that never happened.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 06:28am
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That's one rule I wish they would get rid of. Sure the signal is invalid, but I don't think it should be penalized. As for allowing the play to continue, shame, shame, shame. That should've been killed once the catch is made.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 07:30am
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What about NCAA?

If this were an NCAA game it's my understanding an invalid signal causes the ball to become dead and it is NOT a foul.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudge
If this were an NCAA game it's my understanding an invalid signal causes the ball to become dead and it is NOT a foul.
REPLY: Correct. And in Fed, an invalid signal also causes the ball to become dead, but it is a foul (most likely with PSK enforcement).
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 03:05pm
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As per rule, I think the signal is valid since the receiver did extend his arm fully and wave that arm laterally at least once.

The real issue though is that the Back Judge missed seeing the signal at all,
and he got no help from the Line Judge either.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 03:12pm
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Does the validity of the signal impact the hit on the punt returner? By that I mean, if a returner gives an invalid signal and there is contact on him by A (like in the clip), is this a personal foul or a different foul?

For NCAA I am looking at 6-5-5. Is there a similar rule in NFHS?
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantsrc
Does the validity of the signal impact the hit on the punt returner? By that I mean, if a returner gives an invalid signal and there is contact on him by A (like in the clip), is this a personal foul or a different foul?

For NCAA I am looking at 6-5-5. Is there a similar rule in NFHS?
REPLY: NF 6-5-3: Only the receiver who gives a valid signal is afforded protection.

However, once the ball is blown dead by the covering official, hard contact is prohibited by rules related to personal fouls (late hits).
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 04:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: NF 6-5-3: Only the receiver who gives a valid signal is afforded protection.

However, once the ball is blown dead by the covering official, hard contact is prohibited by rules related to personal fouls (late hits).
That's what I thought. Thanks Bob.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 07:37pm
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I think that they made a bad call in the pitt navy game on the delay, because the kid called fair catch then had to run to catch the ball he could not stop on a dime from a full speed running catch.
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Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 08:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3will
As per rule, I think the signal is valid since the receiver did extend his arm fully and wave that arm laterally at least once.

The real issue though is that the Back Judge missed seeing the signal at all,
and he got no help from the Line Judge either.
I have to beg to differ with you on the signal. As I saw it the receiver's arm started somewhere below his waist and he circled it once. A proper signal is the signal for a touchback (NFHS not NFL). The reason for this is in order not to confuse it with shading the eyes or some other movement of the arm.

Preventative officiating, always demonstrate to a potential receiver how to properly perform a fair catch signal.
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Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 07:30pm
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The way I saw it in the clip is that he did get his arm fully extended and waved it at least once. Agree with having the back judge demonstrating the fair catch signal that he wants to see.

Where in the heck was the back judge and what was he looking at?????

The crew blew this play, hopefully none of our crews will make the same mistake.

Valid or invalid fair catch signal is the minor part... by the way K acted and the way R initially acted they all knew that some sort of signal had been given.
R heard no whistle obviously so he took off for the end zone.

Wonder what have happened in this same play if the receiver had tossed the ball towards the BJ, like a lot of receivers do when they make a fair catch?????
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