How'd We Do?

[bc7]

7th grade Bantam game today.
Team A is shooting a 1-and-1, upon missing the first free throw neither team goes after rebound, shooter grabs the ball and while in the air to shoot the ball the scorekeeper buzzes the horn thinking it was 2 shots, and trying to get a sub in. The basket goes in, we say it counted.

Team B calls timeout. During the timeout team B coach is arguing that his team stopped because of the horn, and it should be blown dead and Team A's ball OOB. I tried to explain to him that the horn was not the reason IMO that his team stopped, it was the failure to play the miss on the 1-and-1. Shockingly he didn't agree with me.

Assistant coach on Team B is a fellow referee and he tried telling me that this is a correctable error, and during the timeout we can change it. I explained to him that I didn't think we made an error.

Obviously this all could have been averted had the scorekeeper not buzzed the horn, but it was an honest mistake.

Did we make the correct call, or should it have been ruled a dead ball?

Thanks in advance.

[BillyMac]

Had a similar situation today in my game with fifth and sixth graders, their first game of the year. We had four games, and it wasn't until very late in the final period of the last game of the day that we had enough fouls to warrant a one and one. All the previous fouls had been two shots, or one shot, which the kids handled well. Knowing that this was the first one and one these kids had experienced since February, I stated, loudly, and clearly, "One and one. This is our first one of the season, so everybody be ready to rebound on the hit". Of course, kids this age, being kids this age, never listen to adults, and when the first free throw missed, they all just stood there. After a second, or two, the free throw shooter picked the ball up off the floor and made an uncontested layup. Two points. Play on.

Which correctable error did the coach/official believe needed correcting: failure to award a merited free throw, awarding an unmerited free throw, permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw, attempting a free throw at the wrong basket, or erroneously counting or canceling a score?

If you stated, "One and one", then I don't see anything even close to a correctable error here.

[Adam]

This is why I generally cringe when a coach tells me he's also a ref. We have some officials in our association who coach, but they don't announce it in the pregame; nor do they announce it if something goes wrong.

Furthermore, a decent JV ref would be able to handle this situation. The horn never stops play, and it sounds like this kid was in the middle of his shot when the horn went off (not that it matters except for the coach's stupid argument that the shot shouldn't count because his players quit playing on the horn). If I was feeling particularly spunky, I'd have asked the assistant coach the question posed by Billy. If I was particularly crabby, I'd tell him to do himself a favor and review rule 2-10 as I walked away.

[BillyMac]

2.10.1 SITUATION A: A1 is fouled and entitled to two free throws under the double-bonus rule, however, the officials indicate a one-and-one bonus situation. The first attempt is unsuccessful; B4 rebounds the ball and passes it up to B2. The error is discovered with B2 in possession of the live ball near mid-court. RULING: The error is discovered within the correctable error timeframe, and shall be corrected. Team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. Therefore, A1 will receive the merited free throw with players on the lane and play resumes from the free throw. (2-10-1a)

2.10.1 SITUATION H: A1 has been awarded two free throws. Erroneously, the ball is allowed to remain in play after A1 misses on the first attempt. A2 rebounds the miss and tosses the ball through the basket. B1 secures the ball and inbounds it. Play continues until a foul is called on A2 as B is passing the ball in B’s frontcourt. RULING: The goal by A2 counts, but the error of not awarding A1 a second free throw is no longer correctable. Since the ball remained in play on the missed free throw, the clock started and the ball became dead when the goal was scored. When the ball became live on the subsequent throw-in, the time period for correction had expired.

2.10.1 SITUATION J: A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting and the try or tap is successful. The administering official erroneously awards and announces two free throws instead of one. A1’s first attempt is unsuccessful and B1 rebounds. Play continues briefly with B1 advancing the ball before the official recognizes the error and stops play. RULING: Since A1 has attempted the merited free throw he/she was entitled to, there is no further correction to be made. Play shall resume with a throw-in by Team B at the out-of bounds spot nearest to where play was interrupted.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bc7

It was an honest mistake.

"Some mistakes are correctable errors. Some mistakes are not correctable errors. They are just mistakes, noncorrectable mistakes."
© 2009 BillyMac

[SAK]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Some mistakes are correctable errors. Some mistakes are not correctable errors. They are just mistakes, noncorrectable mistakes."
© 2009 BillyMac

Very nice Billy

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bc7

7th grade Bantam game today.
Team A is shooting a 1-and-1, upon missing the first free throw neither team goes after rebound, shooter grabs the ball and while in the air to shoot the ball the scorekeeper buzzes the horn thinking it was 2 shots, and trying to get a sub in. The basket goes in, we say it counted.

Team B calls timeout. During the timeout team B coach is arguing that his team stopped because of the horn, and it should be blown dead and Team A's ball OOB. I tried to explain to him that the horn was not the reason IMO that his team stopped, it was the failure to play the miss on the 1-and-1. Shockingly he didn't agree with me.

Assistant coach on Team B is a fellow referee and he tried telling me that this is a correctable error, and during the timeout we can change it. I explained to him that I didn't think we made an error.

Obviously this all could have been averted had the scorekeeper not buzzed the horn, but it was an honest mistake.

Did we make the correct call, or should it have been ruled a dead ball?

Thanks in advance.

You did well. You guys handled the situation correctly according to the NFHS Case Book ruling.

SCORER’S SIGNAL
2.11.3 SITUATION: When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires
to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official
when the ball is in control of that player’s team. If it is for a substitution, the
scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If
it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the
scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a
scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the
reason for the scorer’s signal.

[bc7]

Thanks everyone for your help. I thought we had it right, but I just wanted to confirm.

Oh.... and,

BEGIN RANT:
I had a situation in my first game today (the situation I originally started this thread with was my second game), Team A with the ball, I am right in front of Team B's coach as the trail official. A1 tries to pass the ball and B1 sticks his left leg out striking the ball with the top part of his knee. TWEEEEEEET! I call a "kicked ball". Team B's coach starts yelling that it hit his knee, when I informed him that any intentional striking of the ball with any part of the leg is a violation, he drops this one on me:

"THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS IN THE RULE BOOK!"

Oh really?

OH REALLY?!?!?!

Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you Rule 4-29:
Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

END RANT

Ok, sorry about that. But when coaches try to pretend that they know all the rules and then it gets the parents involved with yelling at us, it really irks me.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled bizarre stats from Mark Padgett.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bc7

Team B's coach starts yelling that it hit his knee, when I informed him that any intentional striking of the ball with any part of the leg is a violation.

You are correct, the current definition of a kick is intentionally striking the ball with any part of the leg. This changed several years ago. A kick used to be intentionally striking of the ball with the knee, or any part of the leg below the knee. Since the ball struck the player's knee, then this coach would have been wrong in two different centuries, the 20th century, and the 21st century.

He may have been wrong in a third century, the 19th century, but Dr. Naismith's original thirteen rules don't specifically mention kicking the ball. Eventually Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will complete his football concession stand duties, and he'll be back on the Forum. He officiated games for Dr. Naismith and will be able to give us some insight into 19th century rules, specifically rules involving kicking. Of course he'll complain about having to go up into his attic library to get his old rule parchments, but he'll eventually come through for us. He always does.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bc7

7th grade Bantam game today.
Team A is shooting a 1-and-1, upon missing the first free throw neither team goes after rebound, shooter grabs the ball and while in the air to shoot the ball the scorekeeper buzzes the horn thinking it was 2 shots, and trying to get a sub in. The basket goes in, we say it counted.

Team B calls timeout. During the timeout team B coach is arguing that his team stopped because of the horn, and it should be blown dead and Team A's ball OOB. I tried to explain to him that the horn was not the reason IMO that his team stopped, it was the failure to play the miss on the 1-and-1. Shockingly he didn't agree with me.

Assistant coach on Team B is a fellow referee and he tried telling me that this is a correctable error, and during the timeout we can change it. I explained to him that I didn't think we made an error.

Obviously this all could have been averted had the scorekeeper not buzzed the horn, but it was an honest mistake.

Did we make the correct call, or should it have been ruled a dead ball?

Thanks in advance.

What "error" is correctable? Since he IS a fellow referee, he should certainly know that the horn/buzzer means nothing in this case.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You did well. You guys handled the situation correctly according to the NFHS Case Book ruling.

SCORER’S SIGNAL
2.11.3 SITUATION: When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires
to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official
when the ball is in control of that player’s team. If it is for a substitution, the
scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If
it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the
scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a
scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the
reason for the scorer’s signal.

In this particular case, the horn/buzzer seemed to sound AFTER the ball was in the air, therefore, there would have been no way to support stopping play.

As a referee, I have NEVER seen anything good ever come out of an inadvertent horn during play when a whistle did not kill the play at that point. My team's were the beneficiary of "no whistles" in this case multiple times (I first got my referee license not to referee, but rather to make sure I knew the rules as a coach). My teams were able to use this as a HUGE advantage because I covered such situations in practice on a regular basis. My players recognized that ill-timed buzzer/horn as an opportunity to get a free basket, legally.

That said, our crew will try to immediately kill the play as soon as the horn sounds (unless the visiting team has a scoring opportunity such as the situation described in the 2.11.3 case play that nevadaref mentioned above). Since 90+% of all players stop when a horn sounds, I much prefer to kill the play as soon as possible (situation above excepted).

In the situation described by the original poster, I would NOT have stopped the play since the buzzer/horn does not appear to have had any effect on the play.

[bc7]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You are correct, the current definition of a kick is intentionally striking the ball with any part of the leg. This changed several years ago. A kick used to be intentionally striking of the ball with the knee, or any part of the leg below the knee. Since the ball struck the player's knee, then this coach would have been wrong in two different centuries, the 20th century, and the 21st century.

He may have been wrong in a third century, the 19th century, but Dr. Naismith's original thirteen rules don't specifically mention kicking the ball. Eventually Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will complete his football concession stand duties, and he'll be back on the Forum. He officiated games for Dr. Naismith and will be able to give us some insight into 19th century rules, specifically rules involving kicking. Of course he'll complain about having to go up into his attic library to get his old rule parchments, but he'll eventually come through for us. He always does.

Hahahahaha!!! Is there anything better than being correct in multiple centuries? Can't wait to hear Mark's answers.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bc7

"THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS IN THE RULE BOOK!"

Here's my stock reply to that:

"Coach, I'll tell you what. I have a rule book in my bag. Let's look it up. If you're right, I'll give you $100. If I'm right, you have to go out in the parking lot and wash my car. OK?"

I've never had a coach take me up on that.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Here's my stock reply to that:

"Coach, I'll tell you what. I have a rule book in my bag. Let's look it up. If you're right, I'll give you $100. If I'm right, you have to go out in the parking lot and wash my car. OK?"

I've never had a coach take me up on that.

My solution, as previously mentioned on this forum on several occasions, is to immediately assess a technical foul on the coach. When he asks why he got a T, you inform him that he needs to consult the rules book. My principle is that coaches can argue any situation that they wish, but if they are incorrect about a rule, the penalty is a direct T.

I've had very few coaches challenge me about rules since I began to employ this philosophy.