Timer Makes a Mistake

[Spence]

Team A scores a basket with 3 seconds left. Team B calls a TO. On the throw-in B1 throws to B2 who has stepped OOB. B2 then throws a long pass to B3.

However, the scorer, not watching the official, starts the clock as soon as B2 catches the ball. The horn goes off while B2's long pass is still in the air.

Now what?

[BktBallRef]

Reset the clock to 3 seconds. Re-administer the throw-in.

[Spence]

Let me add one more scenario.

Same sitch but there are 7 seconds left. B3 catches the long pass and drives in for a layup for apparent winning basket. Horn goes off. Now A coach realizes what happened and wants time put back on the clock.

I've stopped counting when I see B2 release the ball and since it was caught in the frontcourt I don't start my 10-second count.

How do I know how much time to put back on the clock? Do I put time back on the clock? Does the basket count?

[Nevadaref]

A very similar play occurred during a game around here this season.

We had a long discussion about the proper way to handle the clock.

In short, the referee can only correct the timing mistake with definite knowledge. That means that you must know how early the clock started in order to know how much time to put back. If you don't know, you can't do anything about it.

Your first situation is easy because the horn sounded prior to the throw-in being touched inbounds. Therefore, you have definite knowledge that all three seconds came off the clock incorrectly and you can put all three seconds back. Also, the POI is during the throw-in so the ball returns to the original throw-in spot for the same team.

Your second situation is a mess. You can't possibly know how early the clock started, even if you are fairly certain that it did start early. By rule, you can't correct anything here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your second situation is a mess. You can't possibly know how early the clock started, even if you are fairly certain that it did start early. By rule, you can't correct anything here.

But most officials will, and "that's all I have to say about that."**


**Forrest Gump

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Spence

Team A scores a basket with 3 seconds left. Team B calls a TO. On the throw-in B1 throws to B2 who has stepped OOB. B2 then throws a long pass to B3.

However, the scorer, not watching the official, starts the clock as soon as B2 catches the ball. The horn goes off while B2's long pass is still in the air.

Now what?

It is 01:40amEST (meaning that it is too late to look up both the appropriate NHFS and NCAA rules so I am going to confine my comments to NFHS rules and address NCAA rules tomorrow), so I am only going to say this once. The fact that the Timer has made a mistake in starting the clock when the clock should not have started does not negate the inbounds pass by Team B, nor does the sounding of the horn stop play in this play.

The sounding of the horn should have been a hint to the game officials that the clock was started when it should not have been started. There are only two ways that this situation can be handled and in both cases the game officials must ignore the the Timer's horn. There are a number of situations that can occur after the Timer's horn sounds, but none of them involve Team B getting a new throw-in on the endline in its backcourt with the right to move along the endline. I am only going to deal with two possible situations.


Situation 1: B3 catches B2's pass, and B3 does not have an uncontested drive to Team B's basket.

Situation 2: B3 catches B2's pass, and B3 has an uncontested drive to Team B's basket.


Ruling 1: The covering game official should stop play as soon as B3 catches B2's pass, reset the game clock to three (3) seconds, and award Team B a throw-in nearest the spot that B3 caught B2's pass.

Ruling 2: The covering game official should start a visible three (3) count as soon as B3 catches B2's pass and sound his whistle to stop play when his count reaches three (3) seconds.

But under no circumstances should Team B be made to do a do over throw-in along the endline in its backcourt with the right to run the endline with three (3) seconds on the game clock.

NO DO OVERS!!

MTD, Sr.

P.S. There was a long and spriited debate in a thread in this Forum regarding this type of play with 2.8 seconds remaining in the game a few years ago. And there has been either a Casebook Play or a Pre-season Rules Interpretation within the last two years supporting my rulings.

P.S.S, Good night all. Sweet dreams to everybody.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is 01:40amEST (meaning that it is too late to look up both the appropriate NHFS and NCAA rules so I am going to confine my comments to NFHS rules and address NCAA rules tomorrow), so I am only going to say this once. The fact that the Timer has made a mistake in starting the clock when the clock should not have started does not negate the inbounds pass by Team B, nor does the sounding of the horn stop play in this play.

The sounding of the horn should have been a hint to the game officials that the clock was started when it should not have been started. There are only two ways that this situation can be handled and in both cases the game officials must ignore the the Timer's horn. There are a number of situations that can occur after the Timer's horn sounds, but none of them involve Team B getting a new throw-in on the endline in its backcourt with the right to move along the endline. I am only going to deal with two possible situations.


Situation 1: B3 catches B2's pass, and B3 does not have an uncontested drive to Team B's basket.

Situation 2: B3 catches B2's pass, and B3 has an uncontested drive to Team B's basket.


Ruling 1: The covering game official should stop play as soon as B3 catches B2's pass, reset the game clock to three (3) seconds, and award Team B a throw-in nearest the spot that B3 caught B2's pass.

Ruling 2: The covering game official should start a visible three (3) count as soon as B3 catches B2's pass and sound his whistle to stop play when his count reaches three (3) seconds.

But under no circumstances should Team B be made to do a do over throw-in along the endline in its backcourt with the right to run the endline with three (3) seconds on the game clock.

NO DO OVERS!!

MTD, Sr.

P.S. There was a long and spriited debate in a thread in this Forum regarding this type of play with 2.8 seconds remaining in the game a few years ago. And there has been either a Casebook Play or a Pre-season Rules Interpretation within the last two years supporting my rulings.

P.S.S, Good night all. Sweet dreams to everybody.

MTD is mostly correct.
1. He is 100% right that there are no do-overs. It says so in the NFHS Officials Manual.
2. He is also right that if play isn't stopped until an inbounds player has touched the ball, then any stoppage would result in a throw-in nearest to that location, not back on the end line due to the POI rule.
3. He is NOT correct that in this instance the horn sounding doesn't stop play. This is not the timer/scorer blowing the horn to signal the officials. It is the period ending horn that goes off when time has expired, even if this has happened incorrectly. When time has expired erroneously, the referee can correct that with definitely knowledge. What he cannot do is allow the teams to conduct playing action following the sounding of the horn, conduct his own count, and have the action stand! The teams are operating under the premise that this horn tells them to stop and unless there is a try in flight it makes the ball dead. That is what the rules say.
4. Furthermore, he is failing to acknowledge that a stoppage DURING the throw-in would make the POI an end line throw-in for the same team after the timing mistake is corrected per 4-36-2b. It's not a do-over, but it does look like one.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD is mostly correct.
1. He is 100% right that there are no do-overs. It says so in the NFHS Officials Manual.
2. He is also right that if play isn't stopped until an inbounds player has touched the ball, then any stoppage would result in a throw-in nearest to that location, not back on the end line due to the POI rule.
3. He is NOT correct that in this instance the horn sounding doesn't stop play. This is not the timer/scorer blowing the horn to signal the officials. It is the period ending horn that goes off when time has expired, even if this has happened incorrectly. When time has expired erroneously, the referee can correct that with definitely knowledge. What he cannot do is allow the teams to conduct playing action following the sounding of the horn, conduct his own count, and have the action stand! The teams are operating under the premise that this horn tells them to stop and unless there is a try in flight it makes the ball dead. That is what the rules say.
4. Furthermore, he is failing to acknowledge that a stoppage DURING the throw-in would make the POI an end line throw-in for the same team after the timing mistake is corrected per 4-36-2b. It's not a do-over, but it does look like one.

NevadaRef's Item (3): I will concede that my position is not one of the four (4) listed in R5-S6-A2, but R5-S6-A2 presumes that the clock was started correctly and therefore the Timer's signal is correct, which is not the case in the OP. Furthermore, R2-S12-A7 states: "The Timer shall indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. If a supplementary red light is used, the Timer’s signal is the official
expiration of playing time." The automatic sounding of the timer's signal is the same as if the Timer himself had sounded the signal; I was always taught, as a player, to play until I hear a game official's whistle, therefore, the players should ignore the Timer's signal and play until a game official sounds his whistle (at least well coached teams are taught this).

NevadaRef's Item (4): My rebuttal of his Item (3) negates the need for a POI.

MTD, Sr,


P.S. Let the fun begin, .

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Spence

I've stopped counting when I see B2 release the ball and since it was caught in the frontcourt I don't start my 10-second count.

How do I know how much time to put back on the

ALWAYS count at the end of the game. Then, use that information, if you need to.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is 01:40amEST

So...how was Bambi? When she comes to my house, I always have her stay over. I make my wife sleep on the couch.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

ALWAYS count at the end of the game. Then, use that information, if you need to.

Always listen to Bob -

As many have said in the past if you have a count in your head going at the end of the period (all periods) you then have definate knowledge and can use that information as you need to if the timer makes an error.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef's Item (3): I will concede that my position is not one of the four (4) listed in R5-S6-A2, but R5-S6-A2 presumes that the clock was started correctly and therefore the Timer's signal is correct, which is not the case in the OP. Furthermore, R2-S12-A7 states: "The Timer shall indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. If a supplementary red light is used, the Timer’s signal is the official
expiration of playing time." The automatic sounding of the timer's signal is the same as if the Timer himself had sounded the signal; I was always taught, as a player, to play until I hear a game official's whistle, therefore, the players should ignore the Timer's signal and play until a game official sounds his whistle (at least well coached teams are taught this).

NevadaRef's Item (4): My rebuttal of his Item (3) negates the need for a POI.

MTD, Sr,


P.S. Let the fun begin, .

6-7-6 is the problem with what you wish to do. When that horn sounds the ball becomes dead, unless a try is in flight. Period. The End. It's that simple.

When there isn't a try in flight, the sounding of the period-ending horn makes the ball dead, not an official's whistle. An official may sound his whistle anyway if he so desires, but it is superfluous. The only time that a whistle is needed is when there is a try for goal in flight prior to the sounding of the horn. In that case, the official should observe the end of the try and sound the whistle to indicate to the players that the ball is now dead.

What you have advocated doing goes completely against the rules for live ball/dead ball. It amounts to yelling "play-on" after an official accidentally sounds his whistle during play! You just can't do that. The bottom line is that even if a whistle or a period-ending horn signaling the expiration of time sounds in error, it still has the same effect--it makes the ball dead, unless a try is in flight.