over throw
 

Bases loaded one out, batter hits single to left field, outfielder throws to third, ball goes in dead territory, ump awards batter third base coach argues, how is that possible. Please help me understand that.

2-base award.

If the BR has legally touched first base before the Time of The Throw, then (s)he gets third.

For her own coach to argue, it implies the "batter" reached home on the play and the ump placed her back at 3rd. So the hit had to be really deep, meaning very likely reaching 1st before the throw.


Side issue: Do some rules govern the placement of runners on a dead ball by the lead runner; if R3 had not reached 2nd?

I think ASA bases the award on the lead runner. Example if 2 runners are between second and third at TOT, award the lead runner whatever base is appropriate and then go to the next runner in reverse sequence.

I was not specific, any besides ASA.

I can't imagine why the third base coach would argue unless he/she just didn't know the rules. As others have alluded, the award is two bases from the time the ball leaves the fielder's hand (not, as some believe, when the ball enters dead ball territory), so depending on where the runners were when the left fielder threw the ball is what you use to base your ruling.

Given this was a bases-loaded clean single, I'm thinking that when the left fielder released the throw to third, she was making a play on the runner from first base, and that the batter-runner was already past first base. So the award of third to the batter-runner would be appropriate. If, however, the play was on the runner who started at second base (hard hit ball to left, and the left fielder is making a force-play throw to third), then there's no way the batter-runner ends up at third on the award.

If at TOT, both runners were between 2B & 3B, why wouldn't both be awarded home? I can see a "reverse sequence" situation if both were between 1B & 2B, since there's only room for 1 runner on 3B.

Why are two of you implying an offensive coach argued? Of course the coach that argues is a defensive coach.

"When two runners are between the same two bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner." ASA pg. 98

I think that the lack of punctuation is confusing some people.

I'm reading this: "...ball goes in dead territory, ump awards batter third base coach argues..."

as: "...ball goes in dead territory. Ump awards batter third base. Coach argues..."

It's not the "third base coach" that's arguing.

Here, have some extra punctuations. I have plenty of extras !...,,,''':::;;;????......!!''''...,,,!!!! :D

You might want to read RS #38. IMO, the purpose for this rule was to not hold bases available from the trail runner, but to avoid the trail runner's position from pushing a preceding runner to a base not awarded.

In the question offered by jmkupka, both runners would be awarded home since two bases were available to both at the time of the throw.

I did read it and concur. My reply allowed for the situation where a fielder loses possession of a ball on an attempted tag that goes into DBT.

I think I used the phrase "award bases as appropriate".

But yes, on a throw to DBT where both runners are between 2 & 3 at TOT, I'd award both runners home.

Why? Depending on the level of play (which isn't stated in the OP, it is possible that even on a hard hit ball, the runner from second could still be in between 2nd and 3rd and the LF could be making a play while the runner from first is already past second and the batter-runner is past first.

I have seen it in my Wednesday co-ed league. We have a team with a female who bats 10th in the lineup who due to knee issues can hardly run. The leadoff male batter is a former state placer in the sprints in track as is the female who bats second in the lineup. They both have speed and can reach the next base well prior to the runner who would be on second would make it to third. I have seen her thrown out from the outfield on multiple occasions.

As an aside, she is also an official who I have worked with in volleyball many times.

Mods delete this post: beer + forum != "should post".

The proper base award mechanics...
 

All right folks, once and for all for my edification...

R1 on 1B, off on the pitch, liner caught by F6, airmails the throw over F3's head.

Proper mechanics when the ball enters DBT?
I've usually said "Dead ball! Runner gets 3rd!"

At the time I'm stating this, sometimes R1 is still returning to 1B.
Is my wording correct? Is the timing of this information important, or completely irrelevant?

Regarding the runner, I know she's responsible for knowing her baselining duties, but could the wrong wording be considered misleading?

Various verbs are ok (get, goes to, awarded, etc.)

Base running duties and direction of the runner don't matter; only the position of the runner at TOT (in OP, when F6 chooses air mail).
The important thing is call Dead ball!; then think a bit before announcing the award.
I usually repeat it to be sure all heard and use the time.

Thanks Cecil,

Wasn't thinking in terms of getting the award right in my own mind, more about wording and timing the award properly so as not to deceive (?) or confuse the runner about what she should do.

Of course, it's the runner's (& coach's) job to do the right thing...

I'm still waiting for my first RS 38 (exception) ruling. It's almost happened a couple times.

If I know that the runner still has some baserunning correction to make during the dead ball, instead of saying something like, "Runner gets third base", I'll just announce the base award by holding up two fingers and announcing, "Two bases".

Then it's up to the runner to go back and retouch before completing the award and they can't say I directed them to do anything differently. If the runner gets confused about which base to go to, wait until they touch the first base of their award before helping them out. Once they touch the first base of the award, they can't go back and retouch anyway, so if you tell them to "go to third" at that point you aren't depriving them of any chance to correct their baserunning mistake.

Seems like the perfect way to handle it. Thanks.

Defined by the time you make the award or the time it's earned? E.g., if she touches second a half step after the ball goes out of play and then starts back for first and then you announce she's got third, is she able to fix her base-running mistake?

Signal and call "DEAD BALL".

Watch all active runners and remain silent until you are satisfied the runners have completed whatever advance/retreat they intend to make. Then announce the award.

Always wait to announce the award as to not put a runner in jeopardy.

If this runner was in between first and second base when the throw was made, what is the first base of her two-base award? Second.

If she touched second base after the ball went out of play, has she touched the the first base of her award after the ball became dead? Yes.

At that point the rule says she can't go back and correct her baserunning mistake.

No. And it bothers me when otherwise solid and experienced partners get this wrong. I wonder if this is carryover training from baseball...

The rule doesn't says FIRST awarded base... it says NEXT awarded base. If they were between 1st and 2nd when the ball was released, but between 2nd and 3rd when it went out of play and 3rd base was awarded... THIRD BASE is the next awarded base. If they touch 3rd they can't return. If they do not touch third, they ABSOLUTELY can go back and return to first to retouch properly.

They, of course, can touch 3B before retreating to complete their responsibilities; we just have to disallow it upon appeal...

I somewhat disagree. I think BretMans explanation may have been an oversimplification, but would be true if the umpire immediately awarded the bases upon the ball entering DBT. IMO, the next awarded base is the first base of the award. Nothing is awarded until the umpire says it is. And there needs to be the consideration that just because the umpire calls, yells, bellows "dead ball" doesn't mean everyone hears or instantaneously heeds the call and continues playing through a lot of noise and sometimes confusion.

This was a bullshit rule change for 2003. The reason offered was "To prevent the possibility that once a base runner advances, they may not return to any base they've gone beyond on the award. This would permit the defensive team to make any appeal as soon as the base runner advanced to or past the next base."

When it went into effect, we were clearly instructed (and passed this on to the local umpires) to not be hasty in announcing the awards simply to avoid this type of mess.