This was posted on McGriff's baseball board.

Since it involves a softball game, I wanted to hear what you all have to say.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...8&u_sid=844650

It sounds like a mess but this is what softball programs have grown into. I answered another thread about umpiring baseball and softball. I made the comment that the parents for youth baseball seem to be in better control than parents for girls softball.

In this instance, the coach was out of line.

The umpire should have told the tournament director or the person trying to calm the fans of the consequence of their behavior before the TD went to talk to them.

I never forfeit a game because a fan threatens me while I am on the field. I inform the 'butt' head that I will be glad to meet him after the game with the police on the scene. I carry my cell phone with me to all venues that I am unfamilar with.

The coach is an idiot who admittedly doesn't know his responsibilities to the girls or the school. If he thinks his fans acted appropriately, I'm certainly glad my children will never end up living in a community which tolerates such abuse.

The school's AD should only need to talk to one person, the AD of the host school who was apparently treated no better than the umpires by his guests. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the schools on this team's schedule cancel as they have nothing to gain playing a team with this type of leadership.

The umpire was correct. He tried to be a nice guy and it didn't help. The umpire was wrong in offering to return his game fee. This is something that this coach will hang his hat on for the rest of his life. I can hear it now, "If he didn't think he was wrong, why did he offer to give back his pay?"

The umpire was also wrong in not requesting the host AD to summon the police. A man makes a threat and no one thinks to call a cop? Nope, in today's world, I believe you have to take every threat seriously regardless of how you actually feel.

It is a shame the girls must deal with this, but they don't select the coach. This will go one of two ways. The coach will settle down and learn to control his temper, or he will continue to act in a pompous manner which will eventually ruin the entire season for the team. My bet is on the latter.

I suggest that some of the blame should be borne by this coach's AD as it is apparent they hired a coach who doesn't understand there are a few more responsibilities in HS softball than handing in a line-up card and hollering at umpires. They've got to know I'll battle for them. Yeah, right!

I've done some google searching this morning in response to this statement, and based on the news reports, special reports, and newspaper columns that came up, this statement is not supported. Dominant in fan violence in youth sports were boys soccer, boys hockey, football, LL baseball, and basketball.

Anecdotal evidence around here does not support this, either. Softball parents in the school, travel and summer rec programs I have umpired for are very well behaved for the most part, and those that start getting obnoxious are very willing to quiet down with a simple warning (given through the coach, usually).

Bottom line - I disagree with the underlined parts of the above quote.

[Edited by Dakota on Sep 9th, 2003 at 12:20 PM]

Tom - I agree that we disagree. These are just personal observations that might be more regional and are definitely not based on any statistics.

Since boys participation in sports is greater than girls participation (based on NFHS stats), I would assume that greater instances of violence would be associated to boys sports.

I would be interested on anecdotal evidence based on officials doing multiple girl/boy sports and their local observations.

Yeah... I was just reporting the results of a google search - definitely not of any statistical merit.

Me, too.

On the scholarship expectations front, I do think that the rush of colleges to offer female sports has resulted in parents having an unrealistic perspective on what it takes to be a Div 1 level scholarship athlete, and has resulted in parents pushing their daughters early and agressively to get on the gravey train.

They don't stop to calculate that if they took all that money they pay for travel, coaches, clinics, etc., etc., beginning at age 9 and put it in a college fund, they could easily just pay for their daughter's education!

Tom,

I've routinely made this comment to the parents and coaches of travel ball players for at least the past six years.

Rant on!

Without exception, they deny even the possibility it could be correct. Of course, every parent and coach states that all his/her players who want scholarships get them. What they don't tell you is that quite a few are partials for a local JC or Tech and the financial aid doesn't come close to what some have paid out for their girls to play ball.

I have found that the scholarship argument is much like the 250K people who had a ticket to the opening of some new arena that only seats 60K. I have never heard a parent admit that their "investment" wasn't worth it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I strongly support parents helping their children financially when they want to take part in some sort of athletic activity, but I think the "gotta be seen to get the big scholarship" angle is similar to buying a timeshare.

If you buy thinking of it as a financial investment, you will be sorely disappointed. If you go in thinking of it as a basis to build a level of personal investment for enjoyment and pleasure and everything else as a bonus, you will be better served.

The problem is that there aren't as many "big time" scholarships available as there are parents and players chasing that carrot. Pay for the kids to play and support their effort for as long as THEY wish to pursue it. If they get a scholarship, great. If they don't, hopefully they developed into a young adult having learned the values of team work, personal responsibility, commaraderie and respect for others along the way.

Rant off!

JMHO,

In central NJ, every sport has had its disgraceful incidents involving fans, players, or coaches getting out of control. I used to be the "commissioner" of a Kindergarten–First Grade soccer league, and I couldn't believe how seriously some parents took those games, even though most coaches were just trying to get the kids to kick the ball in the right direction. I even had parents furious with me because I hadn't assigned their kid and his friends to the same team. (In making out the rosters, I used to spend hours distributing the talent so the games would be competitive.)

However, in my experience with baseball and softball, non-shaver baseball and men's softball far surpass older boys' baseball and girls' softball in terms of problems.

I've had several guys tell me, as they left the playing area, that they were going to meet me in the parking lot. So far, nobody actually has, though I don't doubt it will eventually happen. Of the instances I've witnessed or been personally involved in, alcohol was often a significant factor.

Last July, I had a break between SP games and went to a nearby field to watch a LL tourney from the outfield fence. I could hear a guy standing nearby muttering obscene insults toward several players on one team. I asked him what his beef was with that team. With overwhelming beer breath, he explained, in obscene terms, that his kid was on the bench, while these other, inferior players were on the field.

"Since it involves a softball game, I wanted to hear what you all have to say"

In my mind there are two levels of this incident that require two levels of discipline.

#1 - the coach on the field was obviously wrong - for arguing a judgment call; for refusing to return to the bench, and for failing to control his fans. If all that is true, then I believe that he should be suspended for at least two games or a week minimum. With probation when he returns.

#2 - he crossed the line of acceptable behavior when he confronted the umpire in the umpire's changing room. Official's facilities must be a safe haven that can not be violated. If that is true, the coach should be fired.

WMB

WMB brought us back to the original topic...

I agree with your comments, WMB, on the primary fault being with the coach. As to the specifics of the disciplinary action that should be taken - I have no experience there, but it should be significant.

However, it seems to me from the actions & words (esp after the fact words) of the umpire that either he was inexperienced or generally a timid guy. He made several errors, in my judgment.

1) He should have dumped the coach; Not dumping the coach (who was the primary protaganist here, IMO) gives the coach's chicken----- AD a way out to do nothing.

2) He should never have offered to return his pay, even if the only reason was related to how he handled the ruckus rather than the call per se.

3) He should have had someone call the police and stayed on the field until they arrived. The arrival of the police would provide protection from the fan, avoid the coach following him, and would have given the chicken----- AD more to sweep under the rug than he probably has rug to hide.

These errors should have no bearing on how the coach is disciplined, but I'm afraid they will.

That's because, as a parent of a kid who played all those years, I will have to tell you it was worth it! I paid for the pitching lessons and the leagues and the equipment and the travel ball, and I wouldn't take a penny of it back. Why? Because I hear her now, as a young adult, talking about all the fun times and great memories she had as a kid playing.

Of course, none of us, neither she nor her mother nor myself, were ever under the delusion that she would one day win a scholarship to a D1 school. Quite the contrary. We shucked away whatever pennies we could spare, and always tried to hammer home the importance of her studies and hard work. (Remember, I am a teacher.) Fortunately, she did get a scholarship to a very good school (Baylor), but it was because of her academic prowess rather than her athletic abilities.



Couldn't have said it better myself!

<b>
Okay, I confess. During the day or so that the web site was down, I was bored silly and decided to visit McGriff's again. Here is what I posted.</b>

Okay, maybe I wasn't specific enough. My contention of the $$ not being worth it was directed toward the scholarship received (if one was received was not equal to or greater than the "investment".

As I noted in my post, I totally support parents financing their childs athletic endeavors, but for the child, not the scholarship.

Mike's reply to Andy raises a good point, call the police for fan threats. SCump's and Dakota's analyses of the situation are accurate in that the umpire needed to eject the coach and not react to the fans. The umpire is a "less" experienced ump with good potential and will learn from this ordeal.

In Omaha, the umpires association has inquired into this situation and find that the newspaper article is fairly accurate because they are reporting from the umpires report filed with the state school association. Most non-interested persons at the game beleive the umpire was in a good position to make the call AND made the correct call, but while dealing with the coach, the fans reaction had time to grow and become heated. Most of the really bad conduct by the coach was after the game was ended by forfiet because of fan conduct.

At this time, I do not beleive the coach has been publicly disciplined as the school says he was not ejected and therefore the state "sit-out" requirement does not apply. (The state requires any player or coach ejected must sit out the next game of the same level, in this case varsity.)
BUT the rumor factory says that the coach got a good dressing down and umpires have had no further problems with the coach.

Just because the state doesn't require it doesn't mean a school AD with honor and integrity wouldn't recognize that the coach deserved to be ejected and therefore choose to treat him as if he had been.

From that comment, you can assume that I perceive that the school AD is without honor or integrity and therfore a good partner for this coach and his parents, who seem to be similarly ethically challenged.

The private dressing down is all well and good, but it does nothing to send a message to the team, the parents, or the community that his behavior was out of line and will not be tolerated.

"either he was inexperienced or generally a timid guy"

Comments here and on McGriff's BB board suggest that many feel the ump was a wimp for not ejecting the coach, thus preventing the rest of the uglyness.

I disagree. I am neither a wimp in attitude or size (I am more often accused of having the opposite attributes), but I have never ejected a high school coach. I will use every preventative technique available to me to keep them in the game. Generally they are teachers; they are role models; they are part of the educational process; they belong on the field with their students. Of course, if they ever go way too far, then I have a way of letting them know that they are at the end of the rope and if they so much as walk too fast towards me, they are history.

On the other hand, if you want to talk Travel Team or Rec League, then you ought to see all the notches in my belt. They call me "trigger happy," my tolerance level is much less there then in the H.S. game.

WMB

"2. Umpires should also not try to control the fans. If they make threatening remarks, have the AD, park director, league president, whoever, remove them. Other than that, ignore the fans. Asking an irrate coach to control them is only going to make the coach and the fans louder"

Interesting reading the introductory dozen or so pages of both the NFHS and ASA Umpire's manual. The text is nearly identical. I don't know who wrote it and who copied it, or if it was a collaborative effort. But each organization will modify the text to fit it's particular principles.

Both books say you should "totally ignore remarks from the spectators." However, the NFHS books adds the following sentences: "But high school umpires must keep in mind that certain language and behavior/actions are inappropriate at any school activity. When language/behavior/actions become inappropriate the umpire should notify the site administration of the problem and let them handle the situation.

In most high school contests (in this area) the site administrator is the home team coach. Sure there is probably an AD around - somewhere - but there is probably a baseball game being played, maybe a freshman game or two, a track meet, tennis meet, or kids in the weight room or auxilary gym. So the coach takes the responsiblity.

Whether it is the home team, or the visiting team - I've never had a problem holding the coach responsible for his fans. When the situation becomes intolerable, you tell the coach to control the fans or you will forfeit the game. When the coach tells the fans they will be responsibile for a forteiture, they usually quiet down. Generally it is only a few individuals creating all the problems. The others in the stands are ashamed of the few. After the coaches warning, you now have peer pressure working in the stands. The rest of the fans will control the obnoxious ones.

WMB

While accepting the fact that most school ball coaches are teachers, I don't accept the fact that this means the umpire should accept more abuse from them. I also do not give ultimatums. I will remind a coach that certain acts are against the rules (e.g. arguing judgment calls) or remind him of his responsibilies (e.g. controlling the fans), but I don't give "One more word..." kind of ultimatums.

I wasn't suggesting being "trigger happy" at all (that's not good in either school ball or summer ball, IMO).

1) Arguing a judgment call.
2) Refusing to return to his dugout when instructed to by the umpire.
3) Inciting the fans.
4) Refusing to attempt to quiet the fans as instructed by the umpire.
5) Loudly defending the fans "right" to be obnoxious.
6) Further inciting the fans.

Stop me anytime with where you would pull the trigger on this guy. I'd do it somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on the attitude of the coach at the beginning. If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning.

I thought number 2 seemed like a good place to let axe fall anyway! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/dark2.gif

[Edited by Skahtboi on Sep 10th, 2003 at 04:44 PM]

When I originally read the article, #2 was my first thought as to where I would have dumped the guy.

I expect some griping on any close call, and may let a coach come out and discuss the call with me, but once the discussion is over and I ask him to return to the dugout, we're done.

Yeah
 

Number 2... right after the word refusing.

Refusing is not allowed.http://mindscraps.com/s/cwm/3dlil/nonono2.gif

For Hot and yelling,
For AFA and ASA number one is a good place to dump a coach.

For NFHS - agree, between 2 and 4....In Texas if coach is ejected
they must go to Austin and visit with loss of pay for however
long the visit.

glen

Warning!?!? WARNING!?!? What warning? I don't need to give no stinking warnings!!! ;)

I just love it when someone tries the "you can't eject me/him/her, you didn't give me/him/her their warning."

As far as I'm concerned, most get their warning when they look in the mirror in the morning and see someone of an adult age. When they choose not to act in that manner is when their presence on the field is in jeopardy.

Is this what is called being in violent agreement? :D I think I said <b><big><big>NO</big></big></b> warning.

Deja Vu
 

1st year doing High school ball this year and I had game very much like the one in the story.

I was the BU 1st game of a double hitter being played in Dallas in part of town that must would call bad. About 10 min left in the game and I notice the PU talking to a fan, thought nothing of it for a moment than I see the old heave ho motion by the PU. So I figure I better get up there and find out what is going on BUT before I get to him he declares FORFEIT seems the fan told him he would get him in the parking lot after the game. Game SIT at the time Home team up and coming to bat the fan himself is sitting somewhat towards the home side but we also have the 2nd game teams waiting to play which is suppose to start at 7pm and no way to know for sure the coaches of the home team and the school AD say they have no idea who the problem fan is. This again is in area of town that doesnt matter how tough you may be because bullets and knives are usally going to win. So by time I get to HP the coaches are out screaming and everybody around is in disbelieve. I asked the coaches to calm and took the PU to the outfield and advised strongly that we finish the game because there was no way we would make it to the car at this point to change for the next game. The PU agreed after coming to his senses, so we went back and talk with the coaches informing them the situation and that we would finish the game. I told the AD to get on his phone and call the Police if the troubled fan was still in the parking lot I wanted him arrested. We finish the game it went into extra inning and it took another 1hr and 15 min to finish but by that time cool heads had prevailed and no troubles happen

And yes I know once a FORFEIT has been called you are not suppose to play any further BUT my saftey was more important at that time then any breaking of rules and besides the coaches didnt know any better anyway

Oh what fun we have

Don

To those who would dump the guy at #2 no matter the attitude...

Here is what I was thinking when I said I'd maybe go on to #4 before pulling the trigger ...

Coach comes out, "Can I have TIME, Blue?"... And then proceeds to have a quiet, polite discussion asking what I saw, etc. I explain what I saw. Coach continues, still one-on-one, business-like, "But didn't you see..." Things get to where I ask him to return to the dugout, but he is persistent - polite, but persistent. I'd continue to cut him some slack.

However, I don't imagine the scenario in Omaha went anything like that...

Warnings are for traffic cops, judges, weather notices, and
etc.

Not for violations by coaches....


http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/biggrin3.gif


http://www.spao.de/pict/smilies/biggrininvasion.gif

glen

And this is what we want the teacher's to be teaching our children? IMO, this is the most disgusting thing the coach did in the whole messed up affair. He should have been apologizing to his players for his own behavior not the umpires.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on Sep 11th, 2003 at 08:23 AM]

Without getting into details of this case or discussing why #3 would be my trigger, some thoughts:
What I have learned and done about spectator control is to tell the responsible coach that those spectators must be controlled or removed before the game will proceed; and stuck with it. It's probably the only ultimatum I use.
I would do everything possible, including removal of the coach, police presence, etc. to avoid punishing youth players with a forfeit for AA conduct.
I like what Andy and Dakota said:
" expect some griping on any close call, and may let a coach come out and discuss the call with me, but once the discussion is over and I ask him to return to the dugout, we're done."
"Coach comes out, "Can I have TIME, Blue?"... And then proceeds to have a quiet, polite discussion asking what I saw, etc. I explain what I saw. Coach continues, still one-on-one, business-like, "But didn't you see..." Things get to where I ask him to return to the dugout, but he is persistent - polite, but persistent. I'd continue to cut him some slack."
Am I a softy? No, I often lead the league in AA ejections.

That is a good point, but I think there is one thing to add. If the situation truly calls for a forfeit or ejection, you shouldn't take the other players into consideration.

Granted, it is their game and every effort should be made to allow them to play. However, at some point in their life, and athletic competition is one of the prime times, these girls must be aware of the ramifications of inappropriate conduct. Letting people get away with murder so you can be a nice guy is a disservice to the game, the players and the umpires who work games behind you.

Much like the illegal pitcher who never gets called, if their team and coaches are never penalized for improper behavior, they will believe it is permissible which in the long run could directly affect the manner in which they approach the sport at any level.

JMHO,

I couldn't resist the smilies!

1. If coach wouldn't control his fans, and no administrator would either, I would politely tell the coach to get it under control or forfeit. He gives me lip--bye, bye
2. If coach wouldn't go back to dugout after I told him to,
(and we were told to give a warning here, so I tell him twice) then see ya--go to the bus.
3. If a fan threatened me, game is stopped and I call 911 or get someone else to. We will resume game when police get the fan. In the meantime, I'm sitting down on the other side of the field w/my partner.
4. The school's principal has no punishment for this guy because he wasn't ejected???? The principal is another name of a kitty that I won't type here.
5. Coach didn't know he was responsible? Yeah, right.

I was calling an invitational HS tournament about 5 years ago and the parents were mostly Army officiers from Ft. Benning near Columbus, Ga. Well the Army brats always had a nasty coach, they were stuck up and nasty, & most other teams hated to play them. I didn't care one way or the other. I was the PU. The Army kids started losing as their pitcher would throw either right down the middle and the batters were blasting them or she'd throw way out of the strike zone. Well, of course she and her Dad wanted the
way outside, way low, high and inside calls to go their way.
When she didn't get them, he started threathening me in a low voice. I ignored it and continued. He started getting louder, the asst coach was in on it and most of the parents.
I continued to 1/2 inning. I went over to the Head Coach and asked if a school administrator was with the team (required by Ga High School Assoc), no, they didn't need one. I went to the other team, they had one, but he refused to speak to the other coach and fans.
I finally called all the coaches from both sides to the mound, with my partner, and told them--either the guy and his buddies shut up, or they would forfeit, I would get my cell and call 911 and press terroristic threats against the entire side of adults. Oh boy, how fast all of it was resolved by the nasty coach and his squad. Not another peep, and guess what? They pulled it out by 1 run. I still heard muttering from the A$$es on my way to my car--didn't care, kept on trucking.
Either handle it, or you leave yourself open.