These questions were posted on a "local" internet softball board by a coach (yeah, I know - local internet - an oxymoron, but the regulars there are about 90% from a 3 state area), along with answers that supposedly came from the state ASA UIC.

I think two of the five answers are incorrect. Here are the questions & answers the coach posted & my answers.

I'm interested in comments, esp. on Q4 & Q5...

Questions are in regard to R1 on 3rd at the start of the pitch. ASA 10U fast pitch.

<font color=blue>Q1... If pickoff attempt from catcher or pitcher, can runner be put out, if off base?
A....yes </font> Agreed.

<font color=blue>Q2... If pickoff attempt goes out of play, is runner awarded home?
A... yes</font> Agreed.

<font color=blue>Q3...If runner breaks for home on other than hit or BB/HBP with bases full, can she be tagged out?
A... yes</font> Agreed.

<font color=blue>Q4... If said runner crosses home, can she be tagged out?
A... yes, the runner must trace her steps back to 3rd and can be put out while trying to get back. No run counts</font> Agree with the no run counts part. Disagree that the runner <u>must</u> trace her steps back to 3rd. However, if she does and is tagged between home and third, then she is out. Also, she would not be out if tagged after touching home while still on the playing field.

<font color=blue>Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling?
A... Runner is out of play and declared out, no run counts.</font> Disagree. After play stops, runner is returned by the umpire to 3rd. No run scores, player is not out.

I know the state UIC personally, and will not contradict him directly on the board, however, I did post an uncommented quote from the Case Book (play 8.4-7), which leaves just enough wiggle room with it's unstated details. I've sent the UIC an email with my comments, above.

We'll see. Meanwhile - comments?

I understand the "trace her steps back to 3rd" as it applies to retouching a missed base or base left too soon, but not in this circumstance. I, too, do not understand how a runner who has crossed the plate (assuming she touched the plate) can still be in jeopardy.

Quote:

<font color=blue>Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling? A... Runner is out of play and declared out, no run counts.</font> Disagree. After play stops, runner is returned by the umpire to 3rd. No run scores, player is not out.

Same as above. I do not understand how a runner who has crossed the plate (assuming she touched the plate) can still be in jeopardy.

Speaking 10U JO ball.

Rule 8.4.H.1 notes that when a runner advances farther than permitted, she may still be put out while not in contact with a base. Same rule then states, "A runner cannot be put out while in sole contact with a base." Since a runner who has scored is not required to hold the base, I would have to think the quoted sentence would equally apply to those who have completed the four-base circuit.

Rule 8.4.H.2 specifically notes that when all play ceases, a runner who has advanced farther then permitted is to be returned to the proper base.

JMHO,

Tom, Mike,

I agree - do some 10U, however, do try to avoid it..

Q1, 2, & 3 are simple....and you two have as I see it
correctly clarified and simplified the answer to Q4,5.
Would like to know what the UIC said....

glen

He replied...

Upon further review (i.e. reading your answer & thinking about it), I agree. She's no longer in jeopardy after having touched home. She didn't score, but she can't be tagged out, either.

I have coached LL several years and this was my first year helping with ASA 10U . I don't have a rule book! I was wondering about Q2 . I thought the only way you could go home was after the ball was hit or BB/HBP. I'm sure you all are right about this but I was just wondering what the rule was. Thanks, Brian

<b>"I have coached LL several years and this was my first year helping with ASA 10U . I don't have a rule book! I was wondering about Q2 . I thought the only way you could go home was after the ball was hit or BB/HBP. I'm sure you all are right about this but I was just wondering what the rule was."</b>

Thanks, Brian

Brian,

ASA Rule 8 Sec 4 H. 6.
Runners can only score on:
a) a batter ball.
b) a base on balls or hit batter with bases, full <b>or</b>
c)<b><u>on an awarded base when the ball goes:
1) out of play, or
2) on an illegal pitch.</u></b>

Hope this helps.

glen

What Glen said, Brian.

The key phrase in Q2 is "goes out of play." This results in an award of two bases from the time of pitch, which would score runners who were on 2nd or 3rd.

So, the runners aren't stealing home - they are being awarded home.

Question???
 

OK, I do some 10-U, although, I prefer older girls, where the rules are standard. It's not the age, it's the rules. I do have 2 questions.

1) I understand the logic about crossing home plate and having nowhere to go. But, that coach knew she couldn't steal home, it's still a live ball, why not allow a defensive play on a stupid offensive play? The only time I wouldn't allow it is if she was standing on home and didn't come off it. Just because she crossed home doesn't mean the play has ended. She or at least, the coach, should know that wasn't a legal play. She is still in jeoopardy and has to get back to third.

2) Why wouldn't she have to retrace her steps? For example, if she was on 2nd and advanced on a hit, missing third and crossing home, she's gonna have to touch home before she can go back to 3rd to touch the base. Why not in this situation, just because she isn't allowed to steal home, shouldn't mena the rest of the rules don't apply. Along these lines, the abandoning the base should apply, shoudln't it?

Rick

The 10U baserunning rules are a bit of an odd mix.

It is not illegal for a baserunner at 10U to run the bases the same way as any other FP softball player. Notice she is allowed to do that.

It's just that the 10U baserunner is only entitled to advance so far. There is no penalty for running beyond where she is entitled to advance. Once the place is over, the baserunner's advance and/or score beyond what is allowed is nullified and the baserunner is returned.

She is only in jeopardy when she is between bases. She is not in jeopardy merely because she is beyond where she is entitled to be.

No baserunner is required to stand on home, neither is a 10U baserunner. I don't see how the second sentence in 8-4H-1 can be construed to mean that.

A 10U baserunner who advances home when she is not entitled to advance home is not abandoning her base; she is advancing farther than the rules allow.

Re: Question???
 

Speaking ASA

Tom covered most of you questions. I would just like to add that at no point did anyone suggest a suspension of the rules, it's just that there are no rules requiring the runner who has scored as in this scenario to return in a certain manner as it would occur during a dead ball period by rule.

BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base.

Mike
 

<b> <I> BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base </B> </I>

Mike what about rule 8-7-U? Or are we talking about 2 different things?

It still seems that if the runner is going back to 3rd, she has to go through home to get there. Just like if she missed 3rd base and crossed home, she has to touch home and go back to 3rd, in that order. Or am I missing something?

Rick

Rich wrote:

Quoting MIke
"BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base"
______________________________________________
<b>"It still seems that if the runner is going back to 3rd, she has to go through home to get there. Just like if she missed 3rd base and crossed home, she has to touch home and go back to 3rd, in that order. Or am I missing something?
________________________________________________

What does that have to do with abandoning a base? Rule 8
Sec. 7 U. "<b><u>When a runner abandons a base and <i>enters
the team area or field of play."</b></u></i>Two different things.

glen

Re: Mike
 

Rule 8.7.U rules an active runner out for leaving the field of play, not abandoning the base.

As far as retouching home, why would the runner bother? The umpire is not going to return the runner to 3B until the ball is dead. The runner didn't miss a base or leave a base early. Nor did the runner to anything illegal. And before you go there, the runner advancing farther than allowed is not forbidden or illegal. Retaining those bases just isn't permitted.

OK, I'm missing something. In the original post, Question 5 says the runner goes into the dugout.

<B> Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling? </B>

This is what I was basing the question I had on.

I agree the runner has done nothing illegal by advancing to a base she can't have. <B> BUT </B> if she or the coach realizes the mistake and "retreats" to 3rd base, I still think she's gotta retrace her steps, meaning she has to go through home. I agree with your statement if the umpire tells her to go back to 3rd. There is no reason to retrace the steps.

Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more.

Rick

Rick posted:

<b>"Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more."</b>

Rick

http://www.spao.de/pict/smilies/imu2.gif

I agree with the above, however original scenario, was that the
10U runner had achieved HP. There is no where else for her to go.
After the play the umpire would put her back on 3rd, even if she has
headed for dugout or even entered it. She is not abandoning
a base, merely completing what she figured to be a run scored.

Above scenario is different and even 10U would be required to comply
with Rule 8 Sec 3A. unless runner is standing on 3rd at time of
tag.

glen

First, on abandoning the base... Mike was making a point on the use of the word "abandoning" - there is no abandoning the base rule in ASA. The runner is out for entering dead ball territory, not for abandonment.

Second, if the runner re-establishes her jeopardy by returning to third during the live ball, the I can see the requirement that she has to retouch home on the way by. That was the way I was originally thinking. But, Mike makes a good point that the runner is no longer in jeopardy once she has touched home. I have changed my thinking. If she tries to return to 3rd during the live ball, and draws a throw, then maybe there would be a case for interference, but she cannot be tagged out, and she cannot be declared out for entering DBT.

The key thing that is diferent with the 10U runner v. a runner who, for example, missed third on the way by, is the 10U runner <u>has committed no infraction and has no obligation to return to touch 3rd!</u> It is just that by the 10U base running rules, her advance and score will be nullified once the play is over, and she will be returned to 3rd base by the umpire.

She has this weird status of a runner who has scored but who's score will be nullified once the play is complete. Until the play is complete her legal status is the same as any other runner who has scored.

Nothing new here. Once the runner crosses home, they are no longer an active runner.

Quote:

I agree the runner has done nothing illegal by advancing to a base she can't have. <B> BUT </B> if she or the coach realizes the mistake and "retreats" to 3rd base, I still think she's gotta retrace her steps, meaning she has to go through home. I agree with your statement if the umpire tells her to go back to 3rd. There is no reason to retrace the steps.

That's a different story, and I agree, that would be the case. Not a smart move, but I guess it would be possible.

This is the question which was answered by the state UIC, but it wasn't the question which was asked. In the original question, there was absolutely NO mention of the runner attempting to return, but merely asked if the runner was still in jeopardy after scoring.

Quote:

Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more.

I believe they should be able to appeal that play because the runner was still active and the play had not yet finished at the time of the infraction. And it is a possibility that this runner could have advanced farther legally if the ball was thrown out of play. So, advancing to 3B was not an impossibility and during that period, the runner was still in jeopardy, unlike a runner who has crossed the plate.

Now I'm confused, Mike. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-009.gif

Earlier, you said (and convinced me) that the runner who has touched home was no longer in jeopardy. How does retreating back to 3rd base place her back in jeopardy? This wouldn't be true for any other age runner, why here?

As I said above, I can see an interference call, but not a tag out.

Isn't this great?

This has become one of the more interesting posts and follow ups in a long time.

They oughtta just let the 10-U play like everyone else. I think I understand the reasoning for the way it is. I believe the intent was to let the girls try to make a play with no possible bad outcome for the defense. With a "station to station" set of rules, an overthrow can't cost someone a game, so the coach lets the catchers try to throw the girl out or pick them off base.

I think.

Rick

That's true Rick. Most of the cases in 10U the outs
happen because the "coach"http://www.spao.de/pict/smilies/smhair.gifdoes not understand the rules.
Usually in 10U when the runner achieves the next base be-
yond the one they are entitled to, they just stand there.
Which is fine, cause after the play is over, blue is gonna
send her back to the one base she was legally entitled.
Coach see'em there decides something wrong and puts them on
the move and that is normally when the outs occur.

glen

Speaking ASA

This is true for all ASA ball, regardless of age level or discipline (Casebook 8.3-1, rules 8.3.A, 8.7.G)

Try not to confuse the two plays. I stand by my belief that they cannot be put out once touching the plate.

Although I believe this is a remote possibility, especially at 10U, if a runner who missed a base or left a base too soon attempts to return after touching the plate, they must retouch the plate as they return to 3B. Once they do, they once again become an active runner. This places them in jeopardy. Since there is still an active runner in motion, the play is not yet over.

Remember, the effects of the 10U rules do not take effect until the play is over.

Thanks,

Honestly, I really am trying to keep this thread straight. I guess it didn't help that I started it with essentially 5 different scenarios.

Anyway, I missed the part where missing a base was added into the 10U steal home situation. Sorry. Of course I agree that a 10U player is required to touch all the bases, and that running the bases in the proper order applies at that age, too.