Lineup Mgt
 

NCAA 8.5.1.2-Projected substitutions and re-entries are not allowed.

At the start of the inning, OC tells me she will be putting subs in for her 2nd and 3rd batters.
I can accept these changes immediately, but I should advise OC that, at this point, they are official subs, and if she changes her mind, it'll be a re-entry (if the original players were starters).

This is not considered a projected sub, correct?

As long as the subs are now in the lineup, with or without your above advice, legit subs, not projected.

Big argument on another board. I believe the final general consensus was you cannot accept offensive substitutions until they are actually coming up to bat or entering for another runner. My understanding was this was also a big topic of discussion at asa uic national clinic and they came to same determination.

Which to me is tantamount to not accepting the starting lineup except the first batter.
Maybe someone who was at that clinic will explain the irrationality.

A projected substitution is one that can not happen right then, like a re-entry later, or a pinch hitter for a player still on defense.

I don't understand how that could even become a discussion at the UIC clinic.

It has never been acceptable to take projected changes. When someone tries, the immediate and consistent response is, "Coach, not now, tell me when the change actually occurs".

Only once did a coach ever insist and then got pissed because of all his BS, one of his players lost the ability to re-enter.

Some believe refusing projected changes is anal, but AFAIC, it is preventive umpiring that protects all parties involved.

That is not, and has never been considered a projected sub. The coach can make as many subs as they choose at one time, be it on defense or offense; and those subs become effective when accepted (in NCAA when also reported to official scorer and the opposing coach).

I cannot think of any valid reason to make a coach who intends two or more subs, now, to not accept those changes, now. The subs are now in the game, not projected (some time in the future), whether they run now, come to bat now, or later. You mark them all now, you report them all now; they are in the lineup now.

A different example; suppose coach subs S1 to run for the #26, the starting DP on base. At the end of the inning, coach reports to re-enter #26, so he/she doesn't forget to do that when #26 comes back up to bat later. Is anyone saying you cannot accept that re-entry? You are going to make the coach wait until that position comes back up the next time? Is it (should it be??) different if the DP is playing defense at that point?? That isn't projected, #26 is back in the lineup, whether she plays defense now or not.

Projected, as the rule is intended, is to stop the coach from saying S1 is running for #26, and I will re-enter #26 at the end of the inning. THAT is projected, (and it doesn't answer what is intended if they bat around completely and that position comes back up that inning) and "Coach, be sure you tell me that when that happens, because I cannot accept it now."

I accept, and have always accepted, multiple changes at one time. It is the coach's responsibility to know and understand that the change is effective when the rule says it is (accepted versus reported), not for me to refuse to accept a legal lineup change because that position isn't up to bat.

Well, obviously that argument doesn't hold water, because the rules require the starting lineup to be exchanged at the plate conference. :D

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Oh well, so much for logic. :rolleyes:

InI'm of the opinion it is no different than the coach handing in the lineup at the start of the game. Once it is accepted he has made his choice and substitution rules apply. How is it any different if he wants to change all 9 of his lineup on offense? If the coach chooses to make those changes and then gets burned because of an injury or whatever that is the coaches problem. And, every example I can find in any associations case book with regard to "protracted" substitutions always involve trying to make 2 moves with the same player, ie 3 for 4 at bat but 4 will reenter on defense.

But, I call what I'm told to call so if they want us to only accept a single offensive sub as they come to bat so be it.

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

You are always perceptive, or at least humorous. Is the proper emoticon for your post ":p"?

;)

Yes, please accept any sub report that can happen right away.

Those that say not to accept subs who don't bat/field immediately must have trouble with injury/DQ replacements. :rolleyes:

Double Ugh. However, I wouldn't take the on-deck batter as a sub if, for example, there are two out. There are other examples.

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game. Someone said "barring injury" ...

Batting order is 1-9, 1 is up. They have 1 available sub, number 10. Coach says 10 for 2 when he comes up and 10 is in the ODC. 1 hits a double and breaks his leg sliding into 2nd.

If you took 10 as a sub for 2, we're done or playing shorthanded (Depending on the code). If you properly didn't, 10 is not currently in the game, and can go run for 1.

I'm pretty sure that this quote is an argument for both positions here. Someone posted the ruling for NCAA that says that a sub can't be entered until they will actually play. I know of no such ruling for ASA or NFHS (which is scant evidence for their lack of existence.) Absent a ruling like the NCAA's, I would assume that projected subs means what it normally means, subs that will only be made in the future.
Suppose that a team is using a DP/Flex. And in the top half of the inning the home coach comes to you and says I want to put in 13 for my Flex and she's now going to bat for the DP. Are you really only taking half that change because the second half doesn't take effect?

What I find interesting is every case play I have come across for projected substitutions always deals with trying to make 2 moves with the same player. Not one of them refers to taking multiple offensive substitutions.

I agree and I believe many are overthinking the whole thing.

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Doesn't make a difference if it is one player or eight, the coach can make whatever changes s/he please, but when they do, those changes are effective immediately. If the coach tries to involve the same player in two changes, you stop them and refuse to take the change. Tell the coach to give you the change when s/he wants it to become effective.

ditto

Logically speaking, I agree with that philosophy. However, I've posed this at both ASA and NFHS clinics and was told in no uncertain terms not to do it that way.

I've mentioned before that I was dinged on an NFHS evaluation for taking a sub for the second batter due up that inning.

I believe that if the coach tells me that Sally is going in for Sue and isn't due up until the 7th batter of the upcoming inning, that that change should be legitimate. But I've been told not to do that.

Tomorrow, when a coach tells me "17 for 10, in the #2 spot", I am going to have to hold back a huge goofy grin and try not to think about this post.

Speaking ASA

I can state with a clear conscience that those clinicians are misinformed or just outright wrong. The coach has the right to make any legal change to their line up at any time. ANY TIME. If a coach wants to put #2 in for #4 in the 6th position in the line up, I don't give a damn if they are due up this inning, next inning or just grounded out to the pitcher, the umpire should enter #2 in the 6th position in the line up. #2 is now in the game and #4 is out. End of story. No more discussion to be had, it is a done deal. And barring the possibility it is an illegal sub, the umpire hasn't the authority to not make the change.

Again, and I don't know how many times I can state this, all changes are effective immediately. The change not allowed is when the coach wants a change to be effective in the future. THAT is a projected change and what is not acceptable in any game I know.

As previously stated, it should not be that difficult to understand

I have the feeling that some clinicians are so afraid of sounding like projected subs are ok, that they are over-reacting to the question. :rolleyes:

The response above, from highly qualified clinicians and others should be enough to make the substitution process obvious and clear! :cool:

The arguement I always hear for not doing it is, "but what if the coach changes batters 2, 5 & 6 using the rest of his subs, burns the reentry of one of his starters and then batter #5 gets injured and cant continue? This is to protect the coach from running into that problem." Why is it our job to protect the coach? He has to do it to create his starting lineup, what difference does it make if he wants to do it later? If he wants to make those changes and risk having a problem with his subs, that is his problem, not ours.

ditto

One of the reasons you always repeat the changes back to the coach to ensure accuracy and it gives the coach the opportunity to hear it out loud. You know how it is when something inside your head sounds great and then you actually hear or see your idea in action and think, "What the hell was I thinking?" Some coaches are just that way. I've had coaches hear it and say, "no, that isn't what I want to do" and correct it. Saves all parties a lot of headaches down the road

The most common "projected" sub is the reentry.

Coach: "Blue I got 10 hitting for 15 then 10 will reenter.

Me: "Coach I'll accept the first change now. Let me know the other change when you are ready for it to happen."

Also to avoid "oopsie" mistakes that can be a headache later when I repeat back subs to the coach I use names on the lineup. "So I've got 10 Sally Jones hitting for 15 Katie Smith, right Coach?"

I understand and agree with Irish et al on this, but does your opinion conflict with NCAA's definition of "projected sub"? I'm just starting in NCAA work & want to get it right (it's great to work with coaches who actually know how to work the lineup and DP/Flex rule)

See post #8 for the NCAA approved ruling. In NCAA you cannot accept an offensive sub until they are actually coming to bat.

You might want to inform your clinicians of this... as they (ASA) have not been teaching it this way.

The funny thing is ... I've seen clinicians say you should take a sub on a batter that is sure to come up this inning (batting 1st, 2nd, 3rd at the beginning of a new half inning, for example) but not one that may or may not bat this inning (4th batter of a fresh inning ... or 2nd batter up with 1 out and a runner on, for example)... yet other clinicians simply say the sub must be the NEXT batter and the next batter only.

But none of the ASA clinics I've attended to have said you should take, as Mike suggests, 8 subs and put them all in right then.

"They" are not my anything

Just how hard is it for anyone with any experience to understand the coach isn't making a substitution for a batter, pitcher, catcher, etc., but making a substitution for a PLAYER? It cannot be any easier even for the NCAA.

1 out, F9 drops a simple fly ball. A furious coach pulls her and puts in a sub. No problem. But if he waits until the 3rd out and the girls come into the dugout before making the switch, PU is going to say he has to wait until F9 is due to bat before accepting the sub?

That is the NCAA interpretation and what many are arguing. I'll take it one further as an example that was used in the other thread. Coach has dp/flex listed on his lineup. After lineups are verified and exchanged at pregame coach says he is going to drop the dp and have the flex bat. According to their argument, this cannot be accepted until the flex actually comes to bat.