interference--who would have called this the same way?

[greymule]

If in this example, the umpire delayed the call slightly and the fielder threw the BR out, then it could be perhaps that R1 attempted to interfere but actually didn't. (He can still be ejected for USC if so warrented.)

This brings up an interesting question. In the case of the batter who throws the bat in anger and then the ball goes over the fence, the call is now out for USC and the runner on 3B goes back. If as in the example above, the umpire waits until the play is over, would a subsequent ejection of R1 for his USC put him out also? If so, we have our two outs. Or does the fact that the USC occurred before the out mean that the USC takes precedence and nullifies the out that occurred afterward?

Abel on 1B. Baker gets a single and on his way to 1B looks back and calls the umpire an obscene name. Abel is thrown out at 3B. Now the ump ejects Baker. Two outs, I guess.

Is an ejection of a runner for USC always an out? If the batter is out for throwing his bat even if the ball goes over the fence, is he out if he throws his bat because he didn't like the call on strike 2?

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by greymule
... the call is now out for USC...

In all the organizations I know about, there is no provision for an umpire to call an out just because of USC. Perhaps for malicious contract, but not just USC.

USC is just an ejection. In thrown bat situations, I have waited until the play is over.

[Edited by SC Ump on Sep 5th, 2003 at 04:34 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump

In all the organizations I know about, there is no provision for an umpire to call an out just because of USC. Perhaps for malicious contract, but not just USC.

USC is just an ejection. In thrown bat situations, I have waited until the play is over.

[Edited by SC Ump on Sep 5th, 2003 at 04:34 AM]

ASA now supports an out call for USC.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
If in this example, the umpire delayed the call slightly and the fielder threw the BR out, then it could be perhaps that R1 attempted to interfere but actually didn't. (He can still be ejected for USC if so warrented.)

This brings up an interesting question. In the case of the batter who throws the bat in anger and then the ball goes over the fence, the call is now out for USC and the runner on 3B goes back. If as in the example above, the umpire waits until the play is over, would a subsequent ejection of R1 for his USC put him out also? If so, we have our two outs. Or does the fact that the USC occurred before the out mean that the USC takes precedence and nullifies the out that occurred afterward?

Abel on 1B. Baker gets a single and on his way to 1B looks back and calls the umpire an obscene name. Abel is thrown out at 3B. Now the ump ejects Baker. Two outs, I guess.

Is an ejection of a runner for USC always an out? If the batter is out for throwing his bat even if the ball goes over the fence, is he out if he throws his bat because he didn't like the call on strike 2?

Speaking ASA

Whether it is throwing the bat, making gestures, nasty comments, hitting someone, etc., if it is flagrant enough for you to consider it unsportsmanlike conduct, then it is an out. Cannot call one without the other if the reason for the call was USC.

As far as hesitating on a possible interference call, I think that is appropriate as you must ascertain if the offensive player's actions actually interfered with the play. However, you don't wait to the end of the play to make that determination. You can only make that call on the part of the play being executed in which the interference would have been effected.

For example, in the scenario offered, if the fielder makes a clean play after the offensive players actions, they obviously didn't interfere with his ability to make the play. Any subsequent action stands on it's own merit. You cannot call interference if somewhere along the way, something went awry in the play.

[greymule]

For example, in the scenario offered, if the fielder makes a clean play after the offensive players actions, they obviously didn't interfere with his ability to make the play. Any subsequent action stands on it's own merit.

I'm puzzled. If there's physical contact, we call interference even if the fielder makes a clean play. If Abel is on 2B and Baker hits a grounder to F6, don't we call Abel out for interference if he stands in front of F6 and waves his arms, even if F6 fields the ball and completes the play at 1B?

And just when is a runner or batter liable to be put out for USC? Abel gets a single. Ball goes back to the mound. Time out. Abel punches F3. Is Abel out as well as ejected?

Strike 2. Batter says, "F*** you!" Is he ejected and out?

If in these last two cases the runner or batter is out as well as ejected, then runners and batters are at particular risk (compared to fielders or on-deck batters) when they commit USC. If Abel is out at 3B and F5 punches him, F5 is ejected but Abel is still out. If Abel is safe at 3B and punches F5, Abel's status changes: he's out.

[Edited by greymule on Sep 5th, 2003 at 07:04 AM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
ASA now supports an out call for USC.

The authority is only a case play on a guideline rule (Case Play 10.8-1, and ASA describes rule 10 as "guidelines for umprires.")

I know this has been discussed before on this board, but...

I believe I understand ASA's intent with this case play (and fortunately did not have a situation to test that understanding this year), but I sure hope ASA clarifies the depth and breadth of this interpretation with an actual rule change, and hopefully a couple more case plays.

Using the case play only, I read it to say ASA supports an out for flagrant misconduct. I don't necessarily consider all USC to be flagrant misconduct. And, is there any similar penalty for flagrant misconduct by the defense?

[Steve M]

Add me to the rest - that sounds like the right call.

As for a DP? Probably isn't going to happen in a 'D' league on a ball like this.

Steve M

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by greymule

I'm puzzled. If there's physical contact, we call interference even if the fielder makes a clean play. If Abel is on 2B and Baker hits a grounder to F6, don't we call Abel out for interference if he stands in front of F6 and waves his arms, even if F6 fields the ball and completes the play at 1B?[/quote}

No, I simply stated sometimes it may be better to make sure the fielder may have actually been effected by the act of the runner. I'm not talking about waiting until the play is over, just a hesitation. Maybe the defense can pull a double play you were not anticipating. There are many umpires on this board that would rule a runner out simply for running in front of a defender fielding the ball. I don't believe that is the proper call, but it happens and the umpire will routinely insist the act of running in "front" of the fielder is enough for an interference call. Meanwhile, the defender turns a double play why that umpire is standing there calling dead ball. Obviously, the "act" did not interfere with the SS making the play. I suggesting that you, as the umpire, use your judgment and slow down before making a call.

In an obvious case of an attempt to interfere, of course, you are going to call the runner out, but that doesn't mean you have to stop the play that millisecond.

And just when is a runner or batter liable to be put out for USC? Abel gets a single. Ball goes back to the mound. Time out. Abel punches F3. Is Abel out as well as ejected?

Strike 2. Batter says, "F*** you!" Is he ejected and out?

I'm sorry, Grey, but where have you been all year? Beginning around February, this has been discussed at length on more than on occasion on this board. It is in the case book. It was on the test. I questioned Bob Savoie on it and was directed to rule in that manner and it was the NUS fault the book did not get corrected. He insured me that if such a ruling was protested, Oklahoma City (ASA) would rule on the side of the out and ejection. I believed I reported that on this board and McGriffs.

I may have even raised the issue before then because I was talking with Walt Sparks about it last August at the Interservice National in FL.

It's real simple, if an active offensive player commits and act of unsportsmanlike conduct, the ball is dead, the player is ruled out and all runners return to the last base touched at the time of the USC.

[greymule]

I participated heavily in that discussion. I was just wondering how far the USC/out rule extended, since we have only that one test question to go by and did not discuss a variety of alternative situations.

I do recall that we agreed that (1) there was no game penalty an umpire could exact if a runner's USC occurred after the winning run scored, and (2) a runner who had scored and then deliberately crashed the catcher could be ejected but not (as in Fed's force play slide rule) be called out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I participated heavily in that discussion. I was just wondering how far the USC/out rule extended, since we have only that one test question to go by and did not discuss a variety of alternative situations.

I do recall that we agreed that (1) there was no game penalty an umpire could exact if a runner's USC occurred after the winning run scored, and (2) a runner who had scored and then deliberately crashed the catcher could be ejected but not (as in Fed's force play slide rule) be called out.

I thought you were involved. For a while there, you got me thinking one of us has to be crazy.

Right in (1), but in (2), if there are other runners, you can call the runner closest to home out for the now-non-runner's interference.

[Tap]

Thanks for all the responses. I've been on vacation without internet access.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Job well done, Tap.

I would have liked to hear you say that you also called someone else out. I think it would have been within your authority... and appropriate punishement for his actions.

I don't like bullies. R1's actions were those of a bully. I probably would have taken the attitude of "Oh you want to be a bully? Well, I'll show you how to be a bully. You're out. You're ejected. That's for your stupid actions. Now the fact that your stupid actions affected the defense, your runner going to 2nd/1st, (you choose what you think was appropriate - looks like you probably felt neither was appropriate) he is also out."

You may have seen in another of my posts that I also don't like coaches that try to defend the wrong actions of their players. A coach that does more than a simple complaint about such a call... I feel is condoning and encouraging the inappropriate, confrontational actions of their players - he gets ejected too.

I have received a few scowls from players that feel they have been out-bullied (if anybody would want to call it that). But I have received significantly more thank-you's and compliments for good game control and preventing fight situations. Get involved early.

These are the times when you, as an umpire, can stop a fight - after tempers are so high that the benches are cleared... is too late. You are no longer in charge and just have to wait it out now. Write down player numbers, I guess, for your report.

Excellent job, Tap.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Sep 8th, 2003 at 05:23 PM]