When is runner ejected?

[WestMichBlue]

1st game of DH, bottom of 7th, tie score, R1 on 3B, batter hits ground ball to deep short, R1 coming home, F2 blocking plate.

R1 lowers shoulder, levels F2. At time of contact thrown ball is just behind R1. Both players sprawl on ground, ball goes to backstop, R1 gets up and touches home.

Umpire rules no interference, but malicious contact.

1. Does play continue, allowing R1 to score, thus ending game?

2. Can R1 be ejected when game is over? If this were a HS game, and State Assoc rules do not allow an ejected player to play anymore that day, then your answer determines whether or not R1 can play in the 2nd game of the DH.

3. A twist - suppose that ball hit one of the players and dropped near the plate, allowing F1 to pick it up and tag R1 (2nd out) before she could score. Would you kill the play after the out to eject R1, or would you wait until B-R finished running?

WMB

[chuck chopper]

Should rule R1 out, & out off game. Play is killed at that point. What if catcher was hurt so bad he/she couldn't get up ? You would kill the play.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Eject and out at time of malicious contact. no runs score.

There is never a good excuse in a recreational league for intentional contact. If there is opportunity for contact to be avoided, it should be avoided. I don't care where the runner is, where the defense is, where the ball is. Personnally, I will eject anyone that creates unnecessary contact. It is absolutely inexcusable in a recreational league. And perhaps barely permissible in HS competitions... still, it would have to be very slight before I would not eject.

Umpire rules no interference What? Runner interfering with the throw/catch? I've never seen that call unless the runner intentionally hit the ball.

#1) Play continue? No. Maliciaous contact- immediate dead ball (defense may not be able to recover for several secondsor may be short a player because of the contact).

#2) Eject immediately. In HS cannot play next game - at least in my state and probably yours also. ASA probably can play - I don't know.

#3) Ball hit player. Incidental contact with ball. No call. Still call runner out and eject for maliciaous contact.

These would be FED rulings. I assume ASA would be similar except about playing in the next game.

[Dakota]

This is a play that I wish ASA would clarify their interpretation.

Strictly speaking, there was no interference, since the ball was not in the possession of F2 and was not closer to F2 than the runner. So, strictly speaking, we have obstruction with malicious contact. Runner safe & ejected.

I keep repeating "strictly speaking" because that is what the rule book says, but not what the case book says. There is the small matter of ASA Case Play 10.8-1.

PLAY 10.8-1
R1 on 3B, B2 hits a fly ball to F7. Thinking the ball will be caught, B2 throws his bat in anger. The ball bounds off F7 and clears the fence. Umpire rules dead ball. Calls B2 out nullifying his run and ejects B2. R1 is returned to 3B.
RULING: Correct ruling for flagrant misconduct. (10-8A, 10-1J{3}; 10-1K)

The problem with this case play is the rule cited to justify the out (10-1K) is really grasping at straws, since all 10-1K says is the umpire will call players out if the rules say so. It is not a stand-alone rule for conditions when a player is out. Nowhere in the ASA rule book is a rule to back up calling a player out for flagrant misconduct.

Mike has pointed out that the instruction he has received are that we are to apply the Case Play for these kinds of situations, so using that, the proper call in ASA is dead ball, R1 out and ejected, no runs score.

But, I wish ASA would add this to the rule book in 2004 if that is the way they want if called.

[WestMichBlue]

WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.

I was trying to determine the actual timing of the ejection, and if you could eject a player after the game was over. It was my understanding that you could have malicious contact which results in ejection, but not necessarily an out.

However, as Tom pointed out, there is some legitimacy to calling the out in ASA. She is definitely out in NFHS. A sentence in the NFHS book that I have always missed is the penalty for 3.3.S Malicious Contact is "A player that has been ejected for initiating malicious contact shall be declared out unless she has already scored."

The actual case that I presented was not interference. If anything, obstruction should have been called and the runner awarded home. However, using the NFHS ruling, I would assume that the ejection/out would take precedence over the obstruction. If you awarded the obstruction first, than the runner would have scored, and could not be called out.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.

REINSTATE THE QUESTION - (not to be contrary, but because you raise some interesting points to discuss.)

I was trying to determine the actual timing of the ejection, and if you could eject a player after the game was over. It was my understanding that you could have malicious contact which results in ejection, but not necessarily an out.

Yes, that was my understanding, too, until the case play was added in 2003. However, taking a more general approach to this question - suppose the run scores without incident, and immediately after crossing home, R1 throws an elbow into the catcher.

I say you can still eject R1, and the player would suffer whatever consequences result from your filing the ejection report or any league rules about having to sit out the second game. You haven't left the field yet, so you still have jurisdiction.

The actual case that I presented was not interference. If anything, obstruction should have been called and the runner awarded home. However, using the NFHS ruling, I would assume that the ejection/out would take precedence over the obstruction. If you awarded the obstruction first, than the runner would have scored, and could not be called out.

Even in ASA sans the case play, the obstruction ruling does not protect a player from the consequences of a later violation. So, could you properly eject the player and disallow the score even without declaring the player out, assuming the flagrant misconduct occurred before the score? Dead ball immediately (preventing the score), and ejection. That would work, right?

[WestMichBlue]

"Dead ball immediately (preventing the score), and ejection. That would work, right?"

From where are you getting your authority to call immediate dead ball? We do not have interference. The NFHS book lists 36 activities that cause immediate dead ball. Malicious contact (without interference) is not one of them. I believe that you have to wait until the end of the play to eject the player. Or, at least, the is what I am trying to decide.

WMB

[ChampaignBlue]

" We do not have interference. The NFHS book lists 36 activities that cause immediate dead ball. Malicious contact (without interference) is not one of them."

Malicious contact to a player fielding a ball is interference. You could have malicious contact elsewhere without interference I suppose, B2 punches F3 while running the bases on a home run, but most of the time I've got interference if I've got malicious contact.

[WestMichBlue]

Hey guys - it's my question! We do not have interference. The catcher is NOT "about to receive" the ball.

But we do have malicious contact. Now let's go from there.

WMB

[greymule]

So, could you properly eject the player and disallow the score even without declaring the player out, assuming the flagrant misconduct occurred before the score? Dead ball immediately (preventing the score), and ejection. That would work, right?

Not in ASA. You can't have a runner go "poof" as in LL. The runner would have to be out.

ASA is undoubtedly going to clarify and expand on their case book ruling in next year's books. The question about the batter who throws the bat in anger and then the ball goes over the fence appeared on this year's test. ASA umpires who knew the rule book answered that the home run counts but the player is ejected after the play. However, they were unaware that ASA had made a significant rule change without putting it in the book.

Even so, a batter could get a game winning hit and, after the run scores and everybody touches the next base, sucker punch an infielder. Or a runner could score the winning run in the bottom of the 7th and then throw an elbow into F2's teeth. In those cases there's really nothing the umpire can do except make out reports for the league.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
1st game of DH, bottom of 7th, tie score, R1 on 3B, batter hits ground ball to deep short, R1 coming home, F2 blocking plate.

R1 lowers shoulder, levels F2. At time of contact thrown ball is just behind R1. Both players sprawl on ground, ball goes to backstop, R1 gets up and touches home.

Umpire rules no interference, but malicious contact.

1. Does play continue, allowing R1 to score, thus ending game?

2. Can R1 be ejected when game is over? If this were a HS game, and State Assoc rules do not allow an ejected player to play anymore that day, then your answer determines whether or not R1 can play in the 2nd game of the DH.

3. A twist - suppose that ball hit one of the players and dropped near the plate, allowing F1 to pick it up and tag R1 (2nd out) before she could score. Would you kill the play after the out to eject R1, or would you wait until B-R finished running?

WMB

Speaking ASA

Old rule. Allow the run. If there are still active runners, (and this is a stretch) the umpire would have to determine if the INTENTIONAL collision prevented the catcher from making a play on another runner, and could conceiveably call INT and rule the runner closest to home out, but your are still going to score the run. When the play is over, eject R1.

New rule. The moment R1 makes his malicious contact with F2, kill the ball, rule R1 out, eject R1 and return all runners to the base last touched at the time of the INT.

A player may be ejected after the end of the game if for no other reason than to document the event which took place on the field. If the player has a history of USC, it may very well be taken into account should some sort of action come up concerning said player.

New rule. See above.

Old rule. Unless you have cause to rule INT, you must rule obstruction, thus scoring the run. However, since the obstructed runner was "put out", the ball is killed and the appropriate award is made. Any other active runner would be returned to the last base touched or place on the base to which they were proceeding and were more than half-way at the time the ball was killed.





[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Aug 28th, 2003 at 09:36 PM]

[CecilOne]

I think what we are saying is that if the OBS occurred before the USC, the run would score except under the new ASA rule (USC ejection = immediate out).

Then, if the contact also caused the fielder being unable to get another runner out, the contact is INT and
under most rules:
- the runner is out
- any other runners are returned to LBO
or under the new ASA:
- the other runner closest to home is out
- any other runners are returned to LBO
I'm not sure what the "more than half-way" applies to.

The ejection after the game ends is a separate question and can be done until the umpire jurisdiction ends.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

ASA or NHFS:

Dead ball, R1 out and ejected, all runners return.

:>D